357 vs 44 for long range

tiger955 · Mar 14, 2012

I am not sure where to post this, but I am wanting to develop some loads for hunting varmints (coyotes) at longer ranges (100+ yds) with a revolver. I have both 357's and 44's and have been looking at the trajectory tables from a couple of manufacturers and am getting confused. I prefer to stick with a "standard" weight bullet ie. 158gr 357 or 240gr 44, I figure either will have enough energy for the purpose.
Both company's charts I looked at are showing velocities in the 1200fps range, with the same weight and style bullets, on both tables bullet drop at 50 and 100 yards are nearly equal for both the 357 and 44. What is confusing is one company shows almost double the drop at both ranges. Trying to compare apples to apples here but seem to be winding up with orange juice?
Can someone give me an idea whether using comparable loads if one shoots flatter than the other? My preferred loads will be 158gr 357 and 240 gr 44 at about 1200fps. I know I can go with lighter bullets and step up the velocity a bit but prefer a moderately heavy bullet for penetration and less wind drift.

gunners · Mar 14, 2012

Um, if they they leave at the same velocity and have roughly the same bc & sd like those two, they should be roughly the same at 100. Hornady have a pretty could ballistic calculator on their website you could use. I'd go for the round thats the cheapest myself.

tiger955 · Mar 14, 2012

That was my line of thinking, thanks for the reply.

Jimbo357mag · Mar 14, 2012

The trajectories for standard weight bullets in 357, 41 and 44 magnums are about the same. Expect about a 3" drop at 75 yards and as much as a 7" drop at 100 yards. But every gun and bullet combination will be somewhat different.

Federal 357mag

Federal 44mag

Bob Wright · Mar 14, 2012

My experience at long range shooting has sold me on the .44 Magnum. I've shot steel silhouette and often had hits with the 158gr. and 173gr. .357 bullets fail to topple the target at 150 meters, while the .44 put them down with ease. Also, with the lighter weight bullets, I was able to reach velocities beyond those reached with the .357 Magnum. I colcked some .44 Magnum loads with the 180gr. Sierra JHP at 1715 f.p.s., while I could only get around 1550 with light .357 bullets.

I used the 250gr. Keith SWC in the .44 Magnum at around 1400 f.p.s. to take groundhog at ranges in the neighborhood of 100 yards.

And, after the smoke cleared, in my guns, Hercules (later Alliant) 2400 powder became both the velocity and accuracy champion.

Bob Wright

Dan in MI · Mar 14, 2012

While I agree with Bob on silhouettes, live critters are little different. You generally can squeak a little better accuracy out of the .357 than the .44.

The only reason .44 was king in silhouette was those pesky 55 lb rams. The guy that could shoot well enough to always hit the hip with a .357 had no issues. That's also why the Maximum was a favored sil round.

Bob Wright · Mar 14, 2012

Dan in MI said:
While I agree with Bob on silhouettes, live critters are little different. You generally can squeak a little better accuracy out of the .357 than the .44.

The only reason .44 was king in silhouette was those pesky 55 lb rams. The guy that could shoot well enough to always hit the hip with a .357 had no issues. That's also why the Maximum was a favored sil round.

Again, different guns, different shooters; I've found the reverse to be true, I got better accuracy out of my .44s than my .357s. This for some long shots at groundhogs in eastern Ohio.

Also, hits from the .44 slugs were more "impressive" at these distances, often looking as if the critter had been slammed with a baseball bat.

Bob Wright

tiger955 · Mar 14, 2012

I think I am going to stick with the 44 for now as I have some pretty accurate loads already worked up for my SBH. That and some of these high desert 'yotes are big and tough so the bigger bullet would hit harder. There is always the chance of running into a cougar out here also.
For some reason, I was thinking the heavier bullet would drop faster, but I guess that is because they are usually going slower. I am used to shooting muzzleloader at longer ranges and with similar powder charges the bigger balls drop faster, but they are starting out slower also.

Bob Wright · Mar 15, 2012

tiger955 said:
I think I am going to stick with the 44 for now as I have some pretty accurate loads already worked up for my SBH. That and some of these high desert 'yotes are big and tough so the bigger bullet would hit harder. There is always the chance of running into a cougar out here also.
For some reason, I was thinking the heavier bullet would drop faster, but I guess that is because they are usually going slower. I am used to shooting muzzleloader at longer ranges and with similar powder charges the bigger balls drop faster, but they are starting out slower also.

You're right, bullet drop is a function of velocity. The faster it covers a certain distance, the less time gravity has to act upon it. And wind, for that matter.

Bob Wright

Rclark · Mar 15, 2012

Yep as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel, the bullet is 'falling' at 32 ft/s2. The longer it takes to get to destination, the farther it is going to 'fall'

whether a ping pong ball or bowling ball... all fall at the same rate (discounting drag from air resistance of course).... so if same velocity they'll land exactly at the same place. Add in air resistance and it will significantly change this 'ideal' bullet path.... No longer a nice parabolic arc and now you are into the science of ballistics

.

Iron Mike Golf · Mar 15, 2012

tiger955 said:
...For some reason, I was thinking the heavier bullet would drop faster, but I guess that is because they are usually going slower. I am used to shooting muzzleloader at longer ranges and with similar powder charges the bigger balls drop faster, but they are starting out slower also.

I recommend some time playing with a ballistic calculator. I like this one: http://handloads.com/calc/index.html

You can certainly compare bullet drop figures at various ranges for a gun zeroed at 25 yd, but I'd never hunt with that zero, unless terrain was limiting me to 25 yd shots.

I think it's much more useful to compare point blank range. That's the maximum range you can get a target kill without adhusting point of aim to compensate for bullet drop. Now, that depends on target size. Keep in mind, when you zero for a longer range, there are going to be ranges where the bullet is above the point of aim. The highest point above the line of sight is called the max ordinate.

For 'yotes, I'd want a max ordinate of 2 inches. You might feel it should be a touch more or a touch less, based on the size of the groups you can shoot at the max range you expect to engage at. Using the ballistic calculator listed above, you can input the bullet weight, ballistic coefficient, range you zero at, sight height above bore, etc. Now play with the zero range and get it set for the max ordinate (use the impact column) you chose.

What you might find, is that for many loads, it's a wash. Using manufacturer load data, a 158 gr Nosler HP over 10.5 gr #7 gives a point blank range for 2 inches of 105 yds. A 240 gr Mag GDHP over 24.0 gr H110 pushes the point blank range to 110 yds.

So, in your case, it may very boil down to accuracy with a particular gun. Both calibers should perform adequately on 'yotes out to 120 yds and beyond.

And comfort in shooting.

Dan in MI · Mar 15, 2012

Iron Mike Golf said:
tiger955 said:

...For some reason, I was thinking the heavier bullet would drop faster, but I guess that is because they are usually going slower. I am used to shooting muzzleloader at longer ranges and with similar powder charges the bigger balls drop faster, but they are starting out slower also.

Click to expand...

I recommend some time playing with a ballistic calculator. I like this one: http://handloads.com/calc/index.html

You can certainly compare bullet drop figures at various ranges for a gun zeroed at 25 yd, but I'd never hunt with that zero, unless terrain was limiting me to 25 yd shots.

I think it's much more useful to compare point blank range. That's the maximum range you can get a target kill without adhusting point of aim to compensate for bullet drop. Now, that depends on target size. Keep in mind, when you zero for a longer range, there are going to be ranges where the bullet is above the point of aim. The highest point above the line of sight is called the max ordinate.

For 'yotes, I'd want a max ordinate of 2 inches. You might feel it should be a touch more or a touch less, based on the size of the groups you can shoot at the max range you expect to engage at. Using the ballistic calculator listed above, you can input the bullet weight, ballistic coefficient, range you zero at, sight height above bore, etc. Now play with the zero range and get it set for the max ordinate (use the impact column) you chose.

What you might find, is that for many loads, it's a wash. Using manufacturer load data, a 158 gr Nosler HP over 10.5 gr #7 gives a point blank range for 2 inches of 105 yds. A 240 gr Mag GDHP over 24.0 gr H110 pushes the point blank range to 110 yds.

So, in your case, it may very boil down to accuracy with a particular gun. Both calibers should perform adequately on 'yotes out to 120 yds and beyond.

And comfort in shooting.

Great advice. I did that setting up my 14" .223. With a 235 yd zero a standing woodchuck was dead from 50 to 290 yds. Just aim center chest and never go above the nose or below the navel.

tiger955 · Mar 15, 2012

I am understanding about this a lot more now. 2 Bullets of relatively the same shape at the same velocity will drop roughly the same amount at a given range no matter the caliber or wieght.
I will have to play with the ballistic calculator to see what my PBR is for the accurate loads I have worked up for my 44. I am figuring 120 yds is probably going to be about max range I would be able to hit accurately with open sights and my old eyes anyway.
It just seems funny that the figures published by Federal show roughly twice as much drop at 100 yds as what Remington shows for the same basic bullet at nearly identical muzzle velocity.

Larry from Bend · Mar 16, 2012

I regularly shoot at 100 yards with a 44 Special (250 grain @ 1050 fps) and also with a 357 mag (various bullets). They both work well at that distance -- of course the 44 hits metal targets with more authority. Last Summer I shot 2 Coyotes with the 357 (a 4" Model 66 S&W) because that's what I had with me at the time. These were shot with 140 grain JHPs with full house H110 loads. Neither was a clean kill although bullet placement was pretty good. I DID finally retrieve both of them. They were both @ 60-80 yards.

I'm not saying the 357 isn't a decent tool for the job, though. Heck, I've had Coyotes run off after hitting them hard with my 6MM-06. They are tough.
Still, for my use, the 44 (even the Special) is my choice over the 357.

98Redline · Mar 16, 2012

For an open sighted revolver I think I would try and sight in around 75 yards (that is about as far as I would be comfortable shooting)

On my red dot topped 44mag I sight in at 100 yards. Shooting a 300gr wfn bullet at 1350fps this gives me a PBR of 122yds for deer or hogs (+3@50, -3@122). I wouldn't feel comfortable taking a shot longer than 100 but it is nice to have that extra 22 should I need to finish off a wounded one.

Bob Wright · Mar 16, 2012

One last word on the subject: I would say forget about the ballistics tables and get out and shoot, as much as possible and as often as possible. Learn where you bullet strikes at different ranges.

Then stick with your load and sight setting.

Bob Wright

Rclark · Mar 16, 2012

I would say forget about the ballistics tables and get out and shoot, as much as possible and as often as possible. Learn where you bullet strikes at different ranges.

Now there is 'sound' advice

. I have to say this is the way I do it with my revolvers

. Part of the 'fun'.

Iron Mike Golf · Mar 16, 2012

You sure can do it that way. If you're real experienced, then you can probably start with some loads that are real close to where you end up when you're satisfied.

If you'don't have all that experience developing loads and have a good number of t-shirts, then doing things trial and error can cost you. But, if you have several 8 lb jugs of powder and a pallet of primers and brass and a range just outside your back door, then you can do it that way and be set.

I never said don't shoot and just read tables and plug numbers into the calculators. What I was trying to communicate is that is a way to come up with starting points, a way to get a feel for things, and a way to set up some reasonable expectations. My apologies for not making that clear.

For me, I have access to an indoor range. Going outside and shooting full scale is an outing and I can't do it even weekly. So, when I do get out there, I am confirming things. I've already set up a 75 yd zero using the 50 ft indoor range. I'll start right at 75 yds and be off POA a few inches. Then I confirm POI for 25, 50, and maybe 100 yds, depending on where I will be hunting. I find that economical and use more rounds practicing and fewer messing with zeroing.

Mule Skinner · Mar 31, 2012

100+yd. coyotes? Starting both bullets out at the same velocity?

I think I would want the "MOMENTUM" of the 240gr .44 as compared to the lighter 158gr .357

JMTC. Mule Skinner

WESHOOT2 · Apr 1, 2012

"MOMENTUM"

THIS is the mechanism that allows the bullet to perform terminal work at extended distances. If simply shooting paper then bullet weight matters significantly less.

In the 44 Magnum I suggest a minimum weight of 255g for very long distance performance.
In the 357 Magnum I suggest a minimum weight of 180g.

Thank you Ruger for Redhawk cylinder length :mrgreen:

357 vs 44 for long range

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