elbows down

I've retired since 2019, but since 1980 I had been a college football coach.
Most of my appointments were in the offensive line. I think some would be surprised to know that much of line play involves the upper body. We teach players to play with their "elbows in," in order to apply angular force to our opponents. We co-contract the agonist and antagonist (tricep and bicep) that animates the elbow, essentially "locking" the elbow. This allows the player to use the bigger muscles in his shoulders and legs to generate force and to conduct those forces through the locked arms and into the opponent.
I've been pistol shooting for about a year. One of my "training" methods (I've had no formal instruction) is to sit on my patio with a pellet pistol and plink an old frying pan hung 60' away.
The pellet pistol has no recoil to mitigate, it allows my to concentrate on target "holds," and trigger control. I've been able to try different ways to hold the pistol, stances, etc.

Yesterday, I began to shoot with my elbows "down" (or "elbows in" as we say in the football biz) which essentially co-contracted my shoulder joints, anterior deltoids against lats.Additionally, I squeezed my chest with my outstretched arms.
This "elbows down" approach seemed to have made my "platform" more stable, as it eliminated the elbows and shoulders from the kinetic chain. This allowed the gun to essentially be anchored to the floor.

It seems that in shooting, and football, "how and why" are very important.

Is "elbows down" a pistol shooting "coaching point?"

Am I on to something?

I have zero knowledge of how to really play good football. I can't recall the last time I even played for fun. Never was a big fan. So,, my knowledge of how you teach players to be better is zero.

But if I read your post correctly,, you are in a seated position. You are using your arms braced into your chest.

With an airgun or any very low recoiling handgun,, it can work. But it will become obvious that it's more likely NOT the way to try and shoot any handgun with any amount of recoil.

In handgunning,, the least stable, least accurate way to shoot is one handed, standing, unsupported. From there,, you add stabilization by doing several things.
You start with a correct grip in the dominant hand. Then you can add stability by using both hands. But a PROPER gripping is also necessary. Arms extended but not locked.
To add more stability going from standing to kneeling to sitting to prone all add stability.
To add further stability,, correct use of a rest for the hands & gun can also add to it.

Try & find a picture of Elmer Keith in his sitting position in the field. He'd sit with his back against an object,, knees drawn up, and rest his arms on his knees. Usually somewhere between the wrists & the forearm. It's a good field position for aiding accuracy.

PICTURE THIS:I'm not bracing my elbows against my chest, rather my elbows are pointed down, so that the insides of my arms are facing each other, and rubbing against my pecs,
the lats and delts co-contract against each other to stabilize the shoulder.
Elbows in, or down, is proper line play.

PICTURE NOT THIS: as opposed to having my elbows out.
Elbows out is not proper line play.

Your description of EK leaning against a tree indicates (to me anyway) that gun to ground link is valid. By leaning with his back against a tree, he eliminates the torque arm that is the rest of his body, that is; trunk, and legs. His back is braced against the tree, the tree is rooted to the ground, therefore the gun is rooted to the ground.

This is fun.

I have found that subtle adjustments of the "Weaver stance" works quite well for most shooting, but Elmer's sitting position usually produces excellent accuracy when desired. JMHO

Ale-8(1) said:

I have found that subtle adjustments of the "Weaver stance" works quite well for most shooting, but Elmer's sitting position usually produces excellent accuracy when desired. JMHO

Weaver stance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Click to expand...

in the backyard with the pellet gun, 12" frying pan 60' away. I don't always use the homemade rest but I thought it would give a good visual of how I shoot .44 at the range (1x2 pine trim off of the old kitchen cabinets)

listen for the ping.

Elbows are "down."
I don't know what the best position is, I made up the "elbows down" after yesterday's pellet session,

But today I theorized that pistol shooting is just playing football; you play from the ground up, same as golf, baseball, boxing, tai chi, shot put, and weight lifting.

I'm sure I'm missing some (maybe all) part of the equation, I'll let you know how it works with the Redhawk at the range, hopefully on Monday.

Don't try this at home

Ok,, I told ya I didn't know squat about football, and your description went over my head.

all sports have a similar "integrity" in body position.
1. Hands up, to protect your chest
2. legs "coiled," a bouncy demeanor, not straight legged, easier to maintain stability
3. feet rooted, if your feet slip, you can't make or resist force.

from there, you proceed with specifics.

this video says it all:
tells you everything about the kinesiology of sport.
James Gogue

Ale-8(1) said:

I have found that subtle adjustments of the "Weaver stance" works quite well for most shooting, but Elmer's sitting position usually produces excellent accuracy when desired. JMHO

Weaver stance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Click to expand...

At first, I didn't see the attachment.
The push/pull grip between the trigger hand and off hand piqued my interest, sort of a tension/compression combination. It feels very stable.
When I tried holding the pellet pistol with this, I noticed that my elbows were down.

All very good stuff.

One thing about the Weaver stance is it sets one foot to the rear. In many circumstances,, this is very good. However,, there is also the often needed swiveling of the body to engage more than one target. Or, especially in hunting,, the game doesn't present itself to where the Weaver stance is easily used.
Many nowadays use the "Natural" stance,, with a modified gripping method of the Weaver hold. It creates an "isosceles triangle" with the arms & center of the body. The stance is where both feet are about shoulder width apart, and equally facing the target AREA. Then if you need to swing the gun left or right,, all that's necessary is the swiveling at the waist.

BOTH types are very good & have their place.

In the field, position will most likely be determined at the last moment when drawing down on a critter due to the requirements of the moment. There's no perfect approach. Try variations that work for you.

very stimulating.

just did some pellet gun shooting.
IMHO, the weaver grip helps, only need to apply light pressure for my elbows to go down.
I didn't use the stance, just the push/pull grip. I would try this with the isosceles stance.


now I gotta wash the floors, my wife decided that I was ready to contribute.
apparently my convalescing is drawing to a close. not quite 4 weeks

Whelp, took the Super Red Hawk to the range today.
75 feet,
iron sights
Missouri bullet Elmer's hi-tek
Win 244, 9.5 grains
Everything was shot single action.
Used what I understand to be the Weaver grip.
Results are pretty much the same as I've been shooting.
But it felt better.
I'm disappointed in my performance, but I think I can concentrate on sight picture, and trigger control.
Looks like I put 4 through the same hole.
Didn't have a small enough screwdriver to adjust windage, so I did it Daniel Boone style.