Security 6 "cracking forcing cone" an issue?

[Mobuck]

My Son sent me a blip from another forum but I don't have all the TM stuff to copy here. Anyway the question was concerning cracking the forcing cone of a Sec 6 using what seemed to me to be a really heavy load with a 110 grain bullet. 1650 fps/110 gr/4" There is one load in my Lyman manual that reaches this level but most top out well below.
One repondent commented that the "6" series revolvers have a thin area at the bottom of the forcing cone which is prone to crack.
Have I missed this shortcoming of my favorite revolver or is this BS by a S&W fan????

 

[RoninPA]

I'm not the most knowledgeable of the Six series but I've not heard of this. However, myself, I wouldn't subject any of my guns to loads that were not in the books, I value my eyes, ears and limbs and the gun itself.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

It is well known that the S&W 'K' frame revolvers had a thin spot on the bottom of the barrel to allow clearance for the cylinder to close. Here is an example of a cracked forcing cone. The 357mag 'K' frames were/are susceptible to this and that is why it is recommended to not use super-heavy or over-the-top loads with them. I don't have a clue about the 'Six' series but it should be easy to take a look and then use your best judgement regarding loads.

 

[roaddog28]

My Son sent me a blip from another forum but I don't have all the TM stuff to copy here. Anyway the question was concerning cracking the forcing cone of a Sec 6 using what seemed to me to be a really heavy load with a 110 grain bullet. 1650 fps/110 gr/4" There is one load in my Lyman manual that reaches this level but most top out well below.
One repondent commented that the "6" series revolvers have a thin area at the bottom of the forcing cone which is prone to crack.
Have I missed this shortcoming of my favorite revolver or is this BS by a S&W fan????

I have some friendly advice. Stay away from shooting 110 to 125 gr high velocity ammo. No matter what brand of revolver you have. These rounds are hard on any revolver. Stay with the heavier grain ammo even if you reload. I don't reload. I stay with factory ammo. I don't have problems with my Ruger Service Six or my S&W K frame magnums. Here is a picture of a cracked forcing cone on a GP100. You will see the erosion on the forcing cone and the crack. The shooter was using a reloaded 125 gr high velocity round. He claims he was shooting 100 rounds a week for a year.
Bottom line: I would not abuse my revolvers with any light grain high velocity round.
Regards,
Howard

 

[DGW1949]

When I was a street cop up in Austin, we were issued Security-6 .357-revolvers and all the JHP ammo we wanted. Most of the guns had been in service for years and many had probably been fired 1000's of times. I can't recall a single cracked forcing cone, nor a single one that was turned in for anything other than a cracked grip or missing sight blade.
On the other hand, we weren't launching fly-weight bullets at hyper-velocities.

Maybe the damage in question has more to do with the load that was being used than with the gun itself?......yeah, I'll go with that.

Just sayin'.

DGW

 

[Ashlander]

The Six Series guns had no flat spot -- that's purely an old S&W K-frame issue.

 

[rugerguy]

great pictures above guys, and that is what happens when things are "abused" as is the case of the picture of the GP 100 we've had this in the shop, other makes and models too, Colts even,BUT the anomoly is MAINLY the S&W 'K' frame, using the 357 magnum chambering, ala modle 19, and the thinned out bottom of the barrel stub to "clear" the gas ring,YES, they had and have a problem, NO there is no longer any new barrels being made to repair this issue, after all the guns are discontinued, and design changes made, BUT< as noted again, using that type of round and shooting it a LOT, a LOT more than the average guy does, and yes, " $#it happens..."

 

[infantryman]

with all this being said, why do factories even produce so many of these light weight, high velocity rounds???? Seems irresponsible to me.

I have a question on a similar note: Would using .38 +P 125 grain high velocity rounds in a .357 GP100 produce similar excessive stresses on the forcing cone???? I have a boat load and will part with it if that is an issue. Thanks for any insight into this subject.

 

[Onty]

...really heavy load with a 110 grain bullet. 1650 fps/110 gr/4" There is one load in my Lyman manual that reaches this level but most top out well below...

Same lunacy trying to make 357 Swift from 357 Maximum (Super Magnum) killed cartridge and guns in that caliber. Sane approach using heavy bullets showed how good is that cartridge on silhouettes. Unfortunately, too late...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

with all this being said, why do factories even produce so many of these light weight, high velocity rounds???? Seems irresponsible to me.

I have a question on a similar note: Would using .38 +P 125 grain high velocity rounds in a .357 GP100 produce similar excessive stresses on the forcing cone???? I have a boat load and will part with it if that is an issue. Thanks for any insight into this subject.

38special+P ammo can NOT generate the heat or pressure nessisary to damage a Ruger revolver.

There is a popular Winchester White Box 110gr 357mag load that can start to 'flamecut' your top strap and erode your forcing cone in less than one box. Be careful of that ammo. It might take many boxes before any significant damage is done but why take the chance? 8) 8)

 

[infantryman]

Thanks Jimbo!!

 

[Mobuck]

I can't imagine what or how much of it went through the pictured GP100 to cause that much damage.
I linked this to Son so he can view the responses.
Thanks guys.

 

[stantheman86]

Light bullet .357's are what killed the K-frame .357........LE Agencies didn't adhere to the ".38's for training, .357's for carry" guideline, and civilians didn't listen either. Light , fast .357's were popular because they dumped all their energy into the perp and did not overpenetrate. Unfortunately they are VERY bad for the forcing cone of the revolver. The light, fast .357's sold by ammo companies are marketed more for self defense, not range shooting.

I shoot mostly .38's in all my .357 revolvers, but when I do shoot .357 I always stick with 158 gr. Even with .38 and .38 +P I don't go below 130 gr., but like was said, even .38 +P doesn't have near the heat or pressure as .357.

Light bullets and hot loads will kill any revolver, I have seen pics of Redhawks and SRH's with "crazed" and cracked forcing cones from guys trying to work up dinosaur killer light bullet loads.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Light bullets and hot loads will kill any revolver, I have seen pics of Redhawks and SRH's with "crazed" and cracked forcing cones from guys trying to work up dinosaur killer light bullet loads.

There are loads with H-110 and 110gr bullets that go up to 2000fps. Wana try a couple? Not me!! I'll stick with my 158gr and 180gr bullets. More stopping power anyway. :roll: :roll: :mrgreen:

 

[stantheman86]

There is no reason to use 110 gr. .357's at all, there is no advantage for self-defense and they WILL shorten the lifespan of your revolver.

 

[roaddog28]

There is no reason to use 110 gr. .357's at all, there is no advantage for self-defense and they WILL shorten the lifespan of your revolver.

Exactly. 110 gr rounds are not good self defense rounds. And they will shorten the light of any revolver. I have a New Model Blackhawk 357 magnum. One of the strongest 357 magnums out there. I don't use 110 gr in it. Just does not make sense. The 357 magnum was designed on the 158 gr SWC round. I use 158 gr ammo. Plain and simple. The only exception would for hunting. And the 180 gr round is the best in that department. The Security Six will out last the shooter as long as the shooter treats it like it was design to do. Shoot 158 gr rounds at 1250 to 1300 fps and a person can pass the Six to there kids or grandkids.
Regards,
Howard

 

[Boge]

Let's take a deeper look as there is a lot of BS surrounding cracked forcing cones as well:


http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/173730-k-frame-cracked-forcing-cone.html

 

[stantheman86]

FYI the last of the K-frame .357's have round forcing cones, like my 66-7.

The K-frame .357 think has been going on for decades, there are those that claim that their Model 65 has seen 10's of thousands of 158 gr. .357 without an issue, those that claim they have run countless 110 gr. .357's through their 19 and it's as tight as it was when it was new.........

Any revolver is capable of cracking a forcing cone, if the wrong ammo is used............, just like anything mechanical can fail. I don't know why some on the S&W forum say that their 19's and 66's suffered cracked forcing cones with .38 Special. I have never read anything about Model 10's, 64's,67's, etc. having cracked forcing cones besides the odd one that was probably fired with hot handloads.

Keep in mind, a LOT of the failures seen on the internet are from improper handloads, and the shooter either doesn't know or doesn't want to admit that he abused his gun and it failed. Just like the pics of the blown up Model 629 that was used with "bad Chinese ammo" that is circulating all over the internet.............as far as I know there is no Chinese made .44 Magnum, and it turned out the revolver was blown up with a double charged handload.

S&W stopped making the K-frame .357's in about 2001 or so, I have one of the last 66's that were made. S&W claims they were tired of fixing K-frame magnums that were damaged by too much .357, and that they had been saying from the start they are to be used with .38 for shooting and .357 for carry.

But, S&W makes the .357 J-frames........so it doesn't make sense. I guess people just don't shoot enough .357 out of the Model 60's, etc. to cause that many problems.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Let's take a deeper look as there is a lot of BS surrounding cracked forcing cones as well:


http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/173730-k-frame-cracked-forcing-cone.html

Nobody is giving out BS here. ...and it seems the consensus on the S&W Forum is exactly the same. Something like this guy's opinion.

quote> Its no myth. It is the reason that S&W discontinued K-framed magnum revolvers and released the newer L-frame. The forcing cone area of the barrel on K-frames is flatted off on the bottom so the cylinder and crane will clear the barrel. That is the weak area.
L-frames are large enough so that the barrel does not need to be flatted off. If you have a Model 19, take it easy on the high power max loads especially using 125g bullets. Go with heavier bullets, such as the 158g going 1200 fps or less. <end quote.

 

[roaddog28]

Let's take a deeper look as there is a lot of BS surrounding cracked forcing cones as well:


http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/173730-k-frame-cracked-forcing-cone.html

I would have to agree. There is a lot of BS surrounding cracked forcing cones. But it does happen. And it happens on other brands of revolvers not just the K frame magnums or Security Six.
1. Are cracked forcing cones the result of using light grain high velocity ammo?
Yes it can happen.
2. Are cracked forcing cones the result of poor maintenance on revolvers?
Yes if a person does not clean the forcing cone properly. The lead deposits can cause thot spots which can result in a cracked forcing cone.
3. Are cracked forcing cones the result of shooting high rounds counts of full power light grain ammo?. Yes it can and also most of the revolvers also have eroded forcing cones because of this type of ammo.
4. Are cracked forcing cones the result of defects in the revolvers barrels?
Yes. Not only S&W but Ruger has had some problems.

Bottom line: I am one that is not going to worry about cracking a forcing cone on one of my revolvers by shooting 100 rounds of 125 gr high velocity ammo. I limit my round count. But I still shoot a lot of 158 gr 357 ammo in my Ruger Police Service Six and my model 19. I still say a person needs to use common sense and if he reloads, don't get carried away. Most people will not crack a forcing in their revolvers. The number is very small percentage.
Regards,
Howard