Defensive Firearms Training Class ... Help

[kmoore]

I believe the "SUL" position usually is different then the classic "low ready"
Again I've seen it more used for a group assault type of thing. The gun held tight against the chest with the
muzzle pointing almost vertically down and maybe 45 degrees toward the offhand side, able to "punch out" into
a firing position. Supposedly useful in a sorta butt to belly button position behind another person advancing
on something. Again more a group tactic position.

We trained and used the same low ready in the conga line on warrant entry. Old school and on TV was pointing the handgun muzzle up towards your own head. Can anyone imagine what can happen on an AD?
Real story: Nothing like giving an FBI agent an ass chewing when I turned back and seen a MP5 pointed at my head instead of the ground. Of course, corrective measure was with hand signs until the arrest was done. He worked with me on another bank robber arrest and did well with proper muzzle control.

 

[blume357]

Bob Wright is right in some ways, the chances are in most encounters you are going to just draw and fire. But here is part of what I finally got with these multiple long day classes.... the repetition of doing the same thing over and over builds a disciple that one can really understand. At Front Sight we were taught there were 4 separate stages to just drawing and taking aim. It took me three days to get just this. It took a second 4 day class for me to actually be what I consider good at it. Also in a multi-student class you need everyone on board and at the same place when commands are given.... this discipline keeps the firing line safe.

And Cholo; thanks for what I think is the correct answer to my question.... not being proficient in any language other than Southern....these things fly past me.

 

[The.Tumbleweed]

Years ago someone here made the comment in a thread on concealed and open carry that if one was going to carry a gun then they should get training and keep this training up. I took this to heart and over the last 10 or 12 years have accumulated well over 200 hours of formal training which I have paid for personally. (I don't have the luxury of working for the government) ;-)

For years I flew out to Nevada and too the 4 day defensive handgun class along with a group of friends... I've even taken classes at the Sig Academy in N.H. Between Front Sight falling apart, at least for those that purchased a life membership, having a massive heart attack and Covid I was lacking in my required training for a year or two and so last year a friend down in Florida put together a private class for a few people done by a LEO firearms instructor. Because of some personal problems (marital problems) we can't used the same instructor and so my friend has talked me and another friend who also has gone to Front Sight with me as well as the Sig Academy and is a retired Marine Drill Instructor on top of that, to actually teach this year's class. So, my direction is now changing from student to instructor .... and yes, I plan to get formal training in that.

the reason for this post is I'm going to be asking questions and hoping to get some suggestion on the upcoming class. Right now I'm working on a sillabus for the class which is an edited version of the one from last year which is pretty much from some law enforcement training class.

I'm working on getting the various firearm 'ready' positions defined and in the course from last year the first problem I ran into was this defines and describes compressed ready (gun out of holster and held close to ones side) as well as two hand high position but then it mentioned the Sul position and there was no description of it. I guess all LEOs know what this is. I had to go online to discover what this was... pistol held close to body between chest and abdomen and pointed off to the side and down, but here is what gripes the bejeebers out of me... I've spent 30 minutes on line looking for what 'Sul' actually stands for and nowhere can I find it. Since it was developed in Brazil if might be an acronym from some Spanish....

These kind of things just bother me.... and I suspect I'm guilty of doing it too... using an abbreviation or acronym for certain gun terms... just assuming everybody knows what it means.

So, my first question... does anybody know what 'Sul' as a firearms position stands for?

Sul enjoys a bit of notoriety recently as the latest tacticool lightpost for "what works the best" as a "ready position". Only it isn't a "ready position" – it's a movement position – or if you prefer – a carry position.
Google "Warlizard Tactical", and look for "Ready Position". I found it there.

 

[blume357]

The.Tumbleweed: yep... it is for moving as I understand it. But back to my one gripe the printed paperwork from last years class clearly explained the two positions we were going to be using then said that for demonstration purposes show the Sul position with absolutely no description or explanation of what it was... not being in law enforcement I guess, I had missed that somehow.

 

[larry8]

"Low Ready" is in my opinion one of the 2 ways the bad guy will kill you. With "Low Ready" you have to move from that position to the ready position (gun pointed at the bad guy) which takes time (that time the bad guy will use to shoot you).
The 2nd way is with your flash light mounted on or held at the gun. What do you think the bad guy is going to shoot at??? Think about it!!!!!!! OK he is going to shoot AT THE FLASH LIGHT. Which is either in front of you or very close to the in line of sight from the bad guy. So the bad guy shoots at the light and your dead. Of course this is MY opinion and I maybe full of it, so if I am please tell me a better way to do it.

 

[blume357]

the four day class at Front Sight used the low ready position and this was shown to be not desirable at least in the LEO class last year... too easy for someone who gets close to you and move the gun away from them or even take it away from you... that class promoted the compressed ready where you have the pistol tight against your side either point slightly down or straight ahead, we also practiced shooting from this position. As for the light on a gun I agree with you larry8 100% but for a different reason.... I think the average gun owner will be way too tempted to use the light on the gun as a flash light while scanning at night which is the absolute worst thing someone can do in a heightened situation.... I'm been flamed and criticized repeatedly on another forum for saying this and I understand that in theory LEO's are trained not to do this and can to a degree accept that... but I don't think the average gun owner with even minimum training is at the level needed for the discipline required with a night light on a gun. My actual thought if looking around in the dark for a spook is it might be better to not even have a light.

 

[Jeepnik]

Maybe because I was taught by a WWII combat vet my "technique" is old outdated and wouldn't work in the post Vietnam world. It worked up until that point.

Step one, pick a spot that provides the best cover and concealment.

Step two, hunker down with weapon at the ready and let them come to you.

Step three, engage and destroy your enemy before they know where you are.

Note, there's no wandering about with a flashlight so the enemy can see/hear you coming and use steps on through three against you.

Mind you, he taught that this "technique" works whether in Sherman tank waiting for a Panzer or a Thompson waiting for German infantry.

I'm quite certain I would fail every single pistol course given by today's "experts". You see it would take eons, combat time speaking, before I would engage and destroy the enemy. In fact, if the enemy never entered my sphere of influence they would just leave unmolested.

Yep, a well planned ambush, like the 30-30, just doesn't work in these modern times.

 

[Dave P.]

All the positions and training have their place. But when it comes down to actual you need to act as the situation requires.
The more and varied training and practice you get should theoretically allow you to have the skill to instinctively choose
correctly for the situation.
Only way any physical skill improves and evolves is with practice.
What works for me in my house might not in yours.
For stuff outside my house I try to practice drawing, shooting, and moving all at the same time. Initially with the first shot usually
fired one handed and no sights at close up targets.
I've never seen anyone yet ( self included ) that could do that very well. They might get the draw and shoot pretty quick but they'll
be in the same spot when they fire. We've messed around with a shot timer a fair bit and several people could draw and fire
2 shots in about 1.5 seconds. Haven't seen anybody yet that could do that while ending up 4 feet to either side by the second shot.
Lots of times just giving them your money or car keys may be a smarter option.

 

[blume357]

Yep, every year at the East Coast Ruger Forum Gathering Contender sets up a combat course like he participates in with one of the competitions. To brag; I'm better at putting holes in the middle of the targets than him the only thing is it takes me three times as long to go through the course. I can stand at the ready all day long and draw, aim and fire at a still target 20 feet away and drill holes in center mass or even the head with ease ..... I know for a fact if that target is moving or I am it is a whole different world. 50 years ago I was probably the worst dove hunter out there... I could not wrap my head around leading the target and now that I think back I was probably also too slow even back then. Now 60 pounds later......

 

[kmoore]

Moving and shooting takes it up to a really different level in training. It can be done and should be practiced but at advanced training. Another notch up is shooting while moving and firing at a moving target. In a class it takes a ton of time as likely only 1 shooter can go through the course at a time. We did this one. On command to go, move left or right and forward to cover. As a target appeared down range moving across the range left to right or right to left engage it without stopping. Target would drop if hit center of mass. Once cover is reached use it to reload and fire at static targets. No round limit or timed. Most stop too shoot and get yelled at. We did that with handguns and shotguns. When I left carbines were getting moving and shooting involved.
Range safety problems are people tripping and moving with finger on trigger, some having ADs on the range. Most important is to teach how to walk smoothly vs running and holding gun on target. We taught that 1st by moving towards and backing up while shooting at stationary targets. Doubt your going to that level of training. But it can be done.

 

[contender]

Jeepnik makes a valid point for SOME types of potential armed encounters. The "wait & ambush" is still a very valid type of SD & such.
Sadly,, not always what's needed.

You are home, you have kids, you hear the kids screaming for help. You hear a thug in their room.

You are a parent picking up your kid at school. Your kid hasn't come out yet. You hear gunfire & see a thug shooting at kids. He's moving towards where your kid may be coming from.

You are at the local store, you have your family with you. You hear & then see a thug shooting at people, and you know your kid or wife or whomever is near the thug. You see the thug moving towards your family, yet he gets out of sight around a shelf.

My point is,,, SOMETIMES,,,,,, ambush tactics won't be the better option.

Blume has seen what I can do with a bit of movement & shooting, and at "speed." Yes,, he is correct,, his hits are quite good in the very center mass. But he's also a lot slower, and with less movement than what I apply.
To clarify one of his comments,, I don't set up a "combat course" I just have a USPSA stage set up. And not even a very technical one either. I keep them simpler for the Gathering folks.

USPSA style competition combines accuracy, speed, movement, reloads, and most importantly,, STRESSES SAFETY! Any movement done,, while NOT engaging targets is done without the finger in the trigger guard. You are allowed to move & engage targets at the same time. The muzzle is always pointed "downrange" and we have a "180 degree" rule. The muzzle is never supposed to point past the 180 degree line of the stage. And there are also rules about muzzles downward & upward. You can do so,, but it's stressed that if the muzzle is up, and a discharge happens,, the round leaves the range & a DQ happens. If you allow ANY part of your body to be ANYWHERE in front of a muzzle, DQ. I have seen several DQ's because a competitor drops a magazine, and while they do point the muzzle downrange towards a berm,, they reach for the magazine, and it's forward of the muzzle line. No, the muzzle isn't pointed at the body, but the hand is forward of the area in front of the muzzle.
I use USPSA competition to hone skills that allow a shooter to put themselves in conditions they normally do not practice much. Mandatory reloads, weak hand only shooting, unloaded starts, targets in positions that allow for movement by the shooter, moving targets, transition types of scenarios, (Paper to steel to paper to steel to paper to steel, etc.)
USPSA isn't perfect for all types of potential street encounters,, but it does allow a shooter to work on skills well beyond just standing at a table or on the line & punching holes in paper. And with the rules we are required to follow,, it's quite safe.

And with USPSA competition, you can get the occasional stage built similar to the style kmoore is discussing. We don't yell or anything at a shooter. You are allowed to stop & shoot, but your TIME will reflect this and affect the score.
If two shooters do the same course of fire,, say,, like Blume & I, and let's say both of us have the same exact scoring points on a target. The faster moving shooter will be the stage winner because his time is factored in the actual score. In USPSA,, this scoring is called "Hit Factor." And quite often,, a shooter can have fewer target points,, but a faster time,, and be the winner of the stage. Hit factor scoring is a method of judging overall performance.

 

[Jeepnik]

We respect need a sarcasm emoji.

 

[blume357]

Another thing that I noticed when we do Contender's course... and this has nothing to do with the training I originally talked about but a lot to do with the competition he is involved in.... just before he says he's ready and the buzzer goes off on the timer, he is picturing in his mind every move and shot he is going to make. I've watched him do this every time.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

Like Bob, I have no real "ready" position. I am a cross draw, which replaces 3 moves of a standard draw with one. So I just keep my hand on the pistol. Since my arm is already almost straight it's one motion to draw and shoot. That's if I'm just doing a walk and check, or just being cautious. Of course, if I actually KNOW there is an intruder, or feel that I have to clear my house, I am in the "shoot" position. ;-)

 

[Dave P.]

Another thing that I noticed when we do Contender's course... and this has nothing to do with the training I originally talked about but a lot to do with the competition he is involved in.... just before he says he's ready and the buzzer goes off on the timer, he is picturing in his mind every move and shot he is going to make. I've watched him do this every time.

Just like any game or sport...visualization, repetition, coaching, and dedicated practice make you better at the "game".
A whole bunch of the shooting game skills could serve you well if it came down to doing it with your life on the line.
As Kmoore pointed out the problem is safety, room to set up and time if it's a group.
Even practice with a BB pistol can point out the difficulty with moving quickly and hitting targets simultaneously.

 

[Mike J]

Blume I don't know that I have any particular expertise to offer above what has already been shared. I just hope your class goes well. I suspect you will learn from teaching it.

 

[warren5421]

Why would you move if it is only you or you and a partner. Call the cops they can bring lots of help. If kids or others are involved then you may need to move. Other than Uncle Sam having his own rules on what you need to do all classes I have take stresses stay put and call the cops!

 

[Bob Wright]

Contender made this statememt, in part:

"Many will recall how I was in my vehicle, and saw a suspicious person approaching my truck & Penny's car. Out of precaution, and knowing the draw time is removed,, I pulled my gun from the holster I have mounted in my truck, and it was in my hand. It was not pointed at the suspicious person, but it was more readily available for the potential use if necessary."

Having the gun in hand, it is now visible and it is known you are armed. It the situation which I train, my gun is my "ace in the hole" and not readily known to possible assailants. Its "SURPRISE! SURPRISE!"

Bob Wright

 

[contender]

Actually Bob,, the guy could not see my handgun. He approached us and didn't see my gun until AFTER I was loudly giving him commands to get away from Penny's car. I didn't see a weapon on him, and was about to hit him with the door of my truck to move him away from Penny. My door was open, and when he realized I was giving commands,, AND then he looked down & saw my handgun. It was in my hand, at a low ready position as best I could inside my truck.
If he had produced a weapon,, I would not have had to worry about my draw. I already have my firearm in my hands, to reduce the reaction to his producing a weapon.

Another thought.

I've seen it often,, people under stress fail to easily draw a handgun. Again, if you have this happen,, your reaction time has been increased,, giving an assailant more time to do you or your loved ones harm.

As I've mentioned,,, no one method is 100% perfect. But by reducing the time a draw happens, you have gained valuable reaction time.


And yes,, in the game of USPSA,, I do try & plan my approach to shooting a stage ahead of the buzzer going off. As Blume saw,, it does happen. It's part of the game.
But,, since every match, every stage, all across the country is different, (except for Classifiers,) creates different scenarios and challenges,, you do try & be as quick & efficient as possible. In real life,, things will happen so fast,, that you can not plan things. You can only react.
But by repetitive training skills,, you increase your abilities which can help a lot if presented with a bad situation. By reacting & not freezing up, or trying to think,, you may well save your life.

Many will recall my NC Highway Patrol officer friend who was shot in the chest with a .44 mag on 7/3/23. He had to react to the very sudden attack. He has related to me,, he didn't think, he just reacted. He has stated his ability to draw & return fire w/o actually thinking about it,, saved his life. But he had to react to the sudden encounter. That split second timing,, caused him to be shot. Only his vest saved his life from that single round. But his ability to rely upon his skills,, and USPSA competition,, he was very capable of preventing the thug from getting off a second shot.

Reaction is slower than action. I like to reduce the reaction time any chance I get.

 

[blume357]

A number of years ago less than a year after taking my first 4 day defensive handgun class I elected to take a force on force class at the Sig Academy.... (Side note: the main reason I could was my travel and board to New Hampshire was paid for by an organization I was doing a presentation for). That class was an eye opener.... real scenarios where in some you are actually being shot at with special fragile ammo that if it hits bare skin will either bruise the heck out of you or even draw blood. The first scenario; when I realized what was going on and saw the guy's gun and realized what needed to be done I did not even think about what to do... muscle memory kicked in and I shot him in the chest.