Handgun Bear Calibers

[5of7]

You guys really think that a fairly hard, cast Brenneke slug is the same as a pure lead Foster type slug? Brenneke slugs do penetrate. That's why Alaska F&G uses them to put down problem bears... black, brown/grizzly.

You have enough anecdotal evidence and the statistics begin to show a pattern.

Putting down a problem bear is nothing like putting down a charging bear.

In an earlier post it was pointed out that hunting a bear is a different story than being hunted by a bear.

If one is going to Alaska to hunt grizzlies and wants to do so with a handgun or a shotgun with slugs, he will probably be backed up by another hunter or a guide with a more appropriate weapon. That explains the development of the .50 Alaskan as an example.

Except that, problem bears do charge. And they also have been put down, again, with Brenneke slugs... and at very close range, like in someone's back yard. I have spoken with an Alaska Game popo (calls himself that) several times and he has no qualms about going after mean bear with his 12 shotgun loaded up with Brenneke slugs. He has to shoot a bear or two or three every season. Sometimes black, sometimes Alaskan brown.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

I'm sure we all have heard about failures of both rifles, shotguns and handguns when going after dangerous game. A few years ago a guide went after a wounded bear that a client shot with a 300 WM. He shot it with a 416 Remington mag, IIRC, and still got mauled for his trouble.

Another guy emptied his 500 S&W mag into a grizz and the thing just wouldn't go down.

Me, I don't hunt bear. But I fish near them. I'm happy when I never see them.

Come on, you guys. No one wants a 700 WTF???

The problem with slugs is that they do not have enough sectional density to penetrate well enough to be a reliable killer against the larger bears.

It is just as simple as that.

Now, it is possible to kill a griz with a shotgun, why Hell, it is possible to kill a moose with a 22 Long Rifle, but it is just not the way to approach killing a large and dangerous animal like a Grizzly Bear or a Moose.

Has it been done? Sure, but the jeopardization factor to one's precious ass goes way up when one tries it.

As to shooting a large bear with a 300 Win Mg. and then a 416 Mg. only to live long enough to maul the guide, only serves to prove that the 12 ga. slug is way underpowered for the job. Unless, of course, one is willing to take the position that the 12 Ga. slug is superior to either of these rifle cartridges.

Besides, if the 12 ga. slug is the way to go, why was the guide carrying a .416 Remington Mg. in the first place? :?:

 

[AzRebel]

In truth, the answer is heavily dependant on who's asking this sort of question.

I would NOT recommend using a minimal cartridge handgun to after a grizzly on your first grizzly hunt. Likewise, if you've never shot any other large animals with the intended cartridge/revolver combo, then I don't recommend it for dangerous critters, either.

How good of a hunter are you? How good of a shot are you? How many big game animals have you taken with your suggested handgun, or something similar?

If you've shot the handgun enough to know it's capabilities, and your capabilities with it, then you'll already know your answer. If you feel a need to ask, then I don't recommend it.

That in no way means it can't be done.

Daryl

 

[dougader]

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=38495

Yup +1 on the Dixie slugs. These are the best there is when it comes to saving your bacon Right Now.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=38495

This is info from the John Linebaugh 2005 Penetration seminar with Dixie slugs.

Fellow Shooters,

This marks the second year for John Linebaughs Midwest Big Bore Seminar here in Carthage Illinois. As the host of this event I am still compiling the data into a useable format for John and for all our fellow shooters.

I called Mr Gates this evening with the results of his 12ga. Terminator slugs I shot at this event. The slugs I have are last years production around this time with the crimp groove and 740 grains wt.

The shotgun was:
Savage 210, fully rifled, bolt action with the 24 inch barrel.
Velocity: 1241 ave. 3 shots

Penetration in soaked wet newspaper stack:
Distance: 27"
Bullet condition was 100 %. Bullet penetrated straight and did not tip or yaw, nose forward. with the exception of the rifling marks, appeared undamaged and as though it could be reloaded.
Penetration in paper with bone:
( Stack contained 4" of paper, a Beef femur bone with knuckle, and more wet paper behind)
Distance: paper+ bone+ 13"
Bullet condition was approx 65 plus %. Bullet nose was damaged into the crimp groove.Bullet penetrated straight, did not tip or yaw, nose forward.

Observations: The wound channel in both tests were impressive, initally the size of a tomato paste can. As bullet slowed, wound channel reduced to over bullet size. The tramua area around the wound channel was "bruised" to a diameter significantlly larger. ( not measured)
When the bullet struck the bone in the second stack, it simply dissappeared with the exception of a 2 inch section at the top and a 3 inch section at the bottom. the middle 10 inches.... gone. Some of the bone shards were expelled from the stack to a distance of 50 ft from the test. The top 2" piece was ejected from the stack about 2 ft straight up. The display was most impressive.

I have not used this on game, but if the outcome is similar to the penetration tests, this should do admirably for the purpose for which it's designed.

I hope you will find this information helpful.

Thank you
Todd Corder

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=121981&sid=b004b299ab5045c0fa1eaafac583f141

Gentlemen:

When I tested the Dixie Slugs' Terminator, .73 caliber, 730 grain hard cast-heat treated at 1200 fps, at the Linebaugh seminar last year in Jackson, MS, I was awed by the penetration and destructive power. In wet pack newspaper a Federal 400 grain Nosler Partition factory round from a .416 Rigby penetrated 40 inches. The Terminator from a 20 inch Hastings rifled barrel penetrated 39 inches and blew a much larger hole through the test medium.

There is no doubt in my mind that a reliable Remington 870, with a rifled barrel when loaded with Dixie Terminators is capable of stopping any dangerous game on this continent. Indeed this is also the least expensive true stopping rifle and ammo combination available.

Here is a link to the photo results of the seminar: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=121981&sid=b004b299ab5045c0fa1eaafac583f141

RMc

 

[Three44s]

Comparing a bear hunt guide packing a large bore rifle and someone packing a shotgun with slugs (slugs and buckshot?) is at cross purposes ........ the distinction should be self evident.


Three 44s

 

[dougader]

delete...

 

[SC-REBEL]

How many experts on here have actually shot a bear of any kind? How many animals of any kind have they killed with a revolver, shotgun or rifle? All this talk of S.D., etc. sounds and looks good on paper, but the .45 Colt does not look great on paper, yet it kills animals and men very well. I'll take the 12 gauge slug or a .45 and feel confident in bear country.

 

[Ken ONeill]

For Blackies, the .475L works well:

For Brownies, I like a .416 Rem. Mag.:

Would I be happy carrying a .41 Mag. for the highly unlikely need of brown bear defense? Well, no...
but it's better than a stick. My own choice is a .475 L, but if the .41 was all I had, I'd use it. Like I said, it's better than a stick.

 

[5of7]

The Dixie 730 grain 12 ga. slug is certainly capable of taking down large game such as a Grizzly/Polar/Brown Bear.

The reason that it is, is simply because at 730 grains it has sufficient SD to penetrate to the vitals even after breaking the large and tough bones of these critters.

With a SD of .196 it is equal to the 250 grain .44 caliber bullet. This slug was designed for the express purpose, of killing Grizzlies with a fast handling pump shotgun, while still creating manageable, though heavy, recoil.

To say, however that a 12 ga. shotgun with slugs is adequate medicine for a Grizzly without specifying the use of a special purpose slug like the Dixie, is disingenuous at best.

So, regarding the use of a shotgun on a Grizzly, the answer is that if the right slug is chosen, then it is a viable alternative to a rifle, but that slug is not gonna be a Remington Slugger or a brenneke or any of the other common slugs that are available from sources like Walmart or Meijer's.

There are all manner of stories told about killing bears with handguns down to even the .32 Magnum and I have read accounts of killing Grizzlies with buckshot, but these accounts are largely figments of someone's fertile imagination and with a small percentage of actual killings of grizzlies with these things, but the thing to remember is that almost anything CAN happen, but it would be a huge mistake to bet your life that it will happen again when your life is on the line.

 

[CraigC]

How many experts on here have actually shot a bear of any kind? How many animals of any kind have they killed with a revolver, shotgun or rifle? All this talk of S.D., etc. sounds and looks good on paper, but the .45 Colt does not look great on paper, yet it kills animals and men very well. I'll take the 12 gauge slug or a .45 and feel confident in bear country.

The undeniable fact is that we know why certain cartridges are effective against game of a certain type. We know that for dangerous game, you need a heavy bullet, large bore and a bullet that penetrates. We know what properties a cartridge/load needs to penetrate. We know all this. The reason the .45Colt is so effective on game, despite its dismal energy rating, is caliber and bullet weight. What is the best number to use to compare one bullet to the know, with regards to caliber and bullet weight? Sectional density. The shotgun slug lacks this. Badly. Even the best of slugs, which will possibly detach your retinas, are those from Dixie.

I only postulate, and I think I speak for 5of7 as well, that the shotgun slug is NOT the mythical creature folks believe it to be. There's nothing magical about it and all the same rules apply. I don't know about you guys but I'd much rather shoot a big bore levergun, launching a heavy for caliber hardcast bullet than a friggin' 12ga launching a 870gr slug. Way too much recoil for too little effect.

And Brenneke's ain't Dixie's.

 

[jpickar]

Close range bear attacks--

A big hole! 12ga. wins out. You want to hunt bear with a 12ga.get close or use a 45-70 for farther out shots where the math starts being applicable. Up close all the math in the world doesn't matter. Common sense.

John

 

[5of7]

Let me put it this way....if you are gonna hunt Grizzlies with a shotgun, shoot 1-1/4 oz of #9 shot.

That way you just might blind the SOB and be able to hide from him until help arrives... :roll:

 

[dougader]

The Dixie 730 grain 12 ga. slug is certainly capable of taking down large game such as a Grizzly/Polar/Brown Bear.

Thank you. You could have stopped right there...

The reason that it is, is simply because at 730 grains it has sufficient SD to penetrate to the vitals even after breaking the large and tough bones of these critters.

Indeed, sectional density, coupled with velocity/weight/momentum and slug construction make it a viable option.

With a SD of .196 it is equal to the 250 grain .44 caliber bullet. This slug was designed for the express purpose, of killing Grizzlies with a fast handling pump shotgun, while still creating manageable, though heavy, recoil.

... because everyone knows big bore rifles and 5-shot revolvers (50 Alaskan!) never have more recoil than your average guy can handle.

To say, however that a 12 ga. shotgun with slugs is adequate medicine for a Grizzly without specifying the use of a special purpose slug like the Dixie, is disingenuous at best.

I believe you are the only one that was assuming soft lead foster type slugs in this thread.... or the softer Brenneke slugs. ALL slugs, and ALL bullets can be made differently, and bullet selection is crucial for whatever firearm you select.

I don't believe your posts mention anything about bullet construction. Disingenuous is, as disingenuous does.

So, regarding the use of a shotgun on a Grizzly, the answer is that if the right slug is chosen, then it is a viable alternative to a rifle, but that slug is not gonna be a Remington Slugger or a brenneke or any of the other common slugs that are available from sources like Walmart or Meijer's.

The same applies to rifle ammunition and handgun ammunition. So, regarding the use of a rifle or handgun on a Grizzly, the answer is that if the right bullet is chosen, then it is a viable alternative to a shotgun, but that bullet is not gonna be a Remington Disintegrator or a Winchester Silvertip or any of the other common rounds that are available from sources like Walmart or Meijer's.

There are all manner of stories told about killing bears with handguns down to even the .32 Magnum and I have read accounts of killing Grizzlies with buckshot, but these accounts are largely figments of someone's fertile imagination and with a small percentage of actual killings of grizzlies with these things, but the thing to remember is that almost anything CAN happen, but it would be a huge mistake to bet your life that it will happen again when your life is on the line.

You anti-slug guys are a real treat. :lol:

I am not saying slugs are some "magic bullet" but I do think they are a viable option.

First you say ME is no good (and I agree, to a point), so I counter with Taylor KO formula. A 1-1/4 ounce slug, using KO is on par with a 458 Win mag.

You completely ignore the momentum argument. But that's fine.

Then sectional density comes up. Again and again. And I agree 100% that penetration is important. But SD isn't everything, just like velocity, caliber or bullet construction isn't everything when it's standing there all on it's own.

So you switch to bullet/slug construction. Slugs are too soft! So I bring up Brenneke slugs. And you continue to label all Brenneke as too soft, even though their Black Magic line is a heck of a lot harder than some of the soft point/spire point rifle loads that have been bandied about here.

So I (and others before me) bring up Dixie slugs, which uses a 730 grain hard cast, heat-treated solid. You know, the same type bullet that Cast Performance and Beartooth Bullets manufactures. BHN is 30 for the Dixie slugs and it penetrates without shattering.

Dixie's ammo concept is best described as a re-introduction of the famous British loads used in Africa and India in shotgun bore guns, including the famous Paradox guns!

Yet you still badmouth slugs.

Then, in one of the better sets of penetration tests I've seen, the Dixie slug is shown to penetrate on par with a 416 Rigby, and actually caused more damage than the 416, completey "dusting" a huge segment of bone in the test medium while penetrating only 1 inch less.

I give up. There is no pleasing some of you guys. You use extreme, silly examples to argue against slugs. Talk about anecdotal. 22's, 32's, etc., 110 grain jhp's in 357 mag for bear??? No one here has suggested that, and comparing a shotgun slug to such minor calibers is laughable.

Then the reference to a kid on a bike.... just like the age old bowling ball comparison, it certainly doesn't apply to small arms external ballistics. And ironically, it was supporters of "light and fast" handgun calibers (read: 9mm) who used the example to bash the old 45 auto. The argument didn't prove anything in the 9mm vs. 45 arguments, and it doesn't shed any new light on this subject either...

All the best to the OP. If all you have is a 41 mag, I'd sure take it but loaded, of course, with a suitable hard cast slug. I think any differences between 44 mag and 45 Colt won't be noticed by a bear if you are forced to shoot.

 

[jpickar]

Well we are going to have to disgree.
Pic of the 450lb griz my son shot behind our chicken coop
Rem 870 20ga with slugs. Up close it works the best.

John

See pic of my son. He is still alive! Amazing even though he used a shotgun with slugs!!!

 

[SteveRuger]

Ken ONeill, Wonderful Bears! Nice photo's Thanks for sharing. My Son & I personally use a 375 H&H for my long guns & carry the Super Redhawks in 454 I like the 6 shots. I they have worked well. A 41 would be better than a stick is well said for Brown Bears! J/S

 

[jpickar]

Here is pic of my son 2 weeks ago. A 6 point bull elk that he stalked to within 15 yards of them killed it with a arrow. He carried a 4" S&W 629 while hunting. A 12ga with slugs will packing out the meat. He was 5 miles back in. He is still alive!!!

Here is a pic of him packing out his mulie buck last year.

Point is we are doers and not talkers. :wink: We have experiance and experiances.

John

 

[CraigC]

I'm sorry Doug but simply "it works because I said so" just isn't enough.

I also love how you guys want dismiss our posts as meaningless math.

This "meaningless math" is not based on theory. It's based on 150yrs of dead critters.

The 730gr Dixie slug penetrates on par with the 250gr .44Spl Keith load. Which makes plenty of sense to this "math guy" because it is running the same velocity and has comparable sectional density to the Keith bullet.

IMHO, TKO is the best formula for comparing big bores to each other but it can't be relied upon alone and some commone sense must be used in its application. For a 12ga roundball at 1850fps has a TKO score of 83.5 but it sure as hell wouldn't be a better stopper than a 430gr .475 at 1350fps with a TKO of 39.5.

FYI, a 1oz Foster slug has a WORSE SD than a roundball.

Sorry John but one dead bear, and a light one at that, does not constitute authority on the subject. John Taylor killed hundreds of elephants before writing his famous book and folks still question the validity of his TKO formula.

 

[jpickar]

One dead charging grizzly bear is more than most here can talk about.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
John

I am looking for volunteers to be shot by a 12 ga slug and a 44 mag 250gr bullet and the 357 158gr. bullet.

Maybe we will finally have some resoultion! :wink:

 

[COR]

I prefer real life experience to numbers...Thanks for the photos John and that's a nice Bull your boy got there. That sure makes a dad proud!

You "theory" fellas can talk all you want....show me a dead bear and you've got my attention (Thank you John)

For all you numbers and book guys....I just completed a book on flying airplanes and helicopters and have all the data in a spreadhseet...when would you like to fly with me? :wink:

Some folks still don't know when to stop typing (don't worry about being insulted either, I am more embarassed for you than anything)

 

[CraigC]

Which is about as statistically relevant as the one I watched soak up 4 shots from a .416. :roll:

I prefer real life experience to numbers...

It amazes me how much folks just expect you to believe with ZERO supporting data. ZERO!!!

Meanwhile, we can provide extensive penetration testing data, extensive anecdotal data from folks who have killed HUNDREDS of critters. Extensive, usable data about what it takes to kill/stop big angry critters and you provide....wait for it.......NOTHING. One dead bear, nothing else but legend. I happily invite any of you to prove me wrong but there's a catch, you must PROVE IT. [/quote]

 

[dougader]

What data do you guys want? And what data do you have to offer? I'm not just saying something because I have a hunch. I have listed other professionals who have experience in these matters. Much the same, I imagine, the way you are.

I quoted energy figures, Taylor KO figures, and penetration data and you were the one's who scoffed at my use of "math." A side by side test with a 416 Rigby is meaningless? If so, show me a better method.

I'm sorry Craig but simply "it works because I said so" just isn't enough.

You're happy to use the "anecdotal evidence" argument, when in reality all statistics are simply anecdotal.

The Dixie load, for example, is based on the old big bore guns from England that were used in Africa and India on big, dangerous game. I dunno, but I imagine the anecdotal evidence, i.e., reports from successful use of these type of projectiles, might reach the level of credibility of John Taylor's "anecdotes" about his success with big bore projectiles.