Handgun Bear Calibers

[Lee Martin]

On the issue of hardcast slugs, I'll again cite the Linebaugh seminar:

500 Linebaugh - 495 gr LBT @ 1,270 fps penetrated 52"

Anyone think a 0.510 hole that can penetrate like that wouldn't be effective on bear? Argue all you want, but the reality is LBT style bullets (LFN & WFN) have cleanly taken a lot of large game....including the big 5.

 

[Quarterbore]

This thread has gone whole circle. It started out as a thread asking if a 41 Mag was enough to be a somewhat reliable bear defense round against griz. From there the replies were that the 41 would kill a bear but bigger handguns would be better and a good slug gun or higher power rifle would be even better.

If I had to trudge into a thicket after a wounded bear that had one of my kids cornered I would take any gun I could get my hands on. If I personally had the choice between a 12-gauge shotgun with full power 3-inch 1-oz slugs I would take that OVER a 30-06 personally. Now, if I had a 338 Win Mag, I absolutely would take the 338 Win mag over the slugs at that point.

Anything smaller then the 30-06, well if you want to take that over the 3-inch slug I think you are nuts! JMHOs but I can pump a lot of slugs out of a shotgun compared to working a bolt action.

Oh well, everybody has made their oppinions clear. Luckily very few and possibly none of us will ever have to share which worked better for us when our turn to try our theory comes. My father was in Alaska fishing and prospecting for gold for almost a month a year ago. they never got to see a single bear but they kept shotguns on hand with slugs just in case. He also kept a Glock 20 in a shoulder holster loaded with hardcasts too but that obviously is a bit lite for griz duty but a gun on person is better then one 10-feet away.

 

[5of7]

We seem to have a lot of INTERNET NERD, foumularic BS floating around!

First you don't like shotgun slugs, and now you don't like rifle and handgun bullets either? You would reject a light saber, because it wouldn't have enough "SD" to suit you?? Massive tissue damage = massive blood loss. Rapid blood pressure loss to the brain, will put the lights out quickly! Yes it needs to penetrate deeply and break bone, but deep penetration along with a tinny little wound channel (that seals itself back up!) created by a hardcast, isn't the answer for defensive shooting.

Where did I say that I didn't like rifles or shotguns or handguns?

What I am saying is that shotguns are not good medicine against Grizzly bears UNLESS they are loaded with a slug of sufficient SD to penetrate deep enough to kill a full sized Grizzly bear. (like the Dixie 730 grainer) I am also saying that IF one is going to rely on a handgun for possible defense against a full grown Grizzly, it better be a big one loaded with bullets with a high enough SD to achieve deep penetration and that a soft point bullet will not be a satisfactory projectile because when a soft point expands, you lose penetration. and that in the case of a rifle, a soft point can be used in some cases because the SD can be high enough that it can lose some of that SD and still have adequate penetration to be effective.

There was nothing at all complicated about what I explained to you on page 7, just go back and read it again, think about it, and you will probably see the wisdom in what I have said. 8)

Annnnnnnddddd, I hardly think that mastery of a simple formula like the one used to calculate the sectional density of a bullet qualifies one for the title of "nerd." But then if you think so, I think that says more about your intellectual capabilities than mine.... :roll:

 

[RonEgg]

I think we have all seen once again why those that have been on the RF for any length of time, ignore this question. It is legitimate but ALWAYS ends up where we are now.

Mary Ann!

 

[DennisE]

LOL! Does a big Bowie knife have enough SD penetration to do the job? 5 of 7...Makes sense to me, but what do I know. Most dangerous critters I've had to deal with were in lockdown and they wouldn't let us carry guns for fear of hurting an inmate. Dennis

 

[CraigC]

Folks don't like bear threads when they turn out to be this long and full of conflict. But it takes this long to get to the core of the issue. Now I see. The bottom line is that jpickar and off road have not the slightest clue how any of this stuff works. If you don't know about the effectiveness of cast bullets on game, you don't belong in this discussion. You need to be educating yourself and shooting some critters. Because statements like these are embarrassing you and showing how much you really know. Which is very little. Your ignorance is glaring.

A hard cast bullet is only the fad right now until somebody gets killed and it is found out the slug went ALL the way through and didn't do much damage.

Huge mistake to take the advice of someone who's experience is 3 generations outdated...long long before we had such very well developed expanding bullets!

To the moronic:

A hardcast penetrates deep, but punches a narrow little wound channel. It is about as effective as an arrow. It will kill for sure, but it will take a while for the animal to bleed out through that small wound. Fine if inhumane hunting is your goal, but for defensive shooting you want to create massive tissue damage (= blood loss) along with reasonable penetration as well as the ability to break bone.

Lots of choices in tough but expandable bullets out there these days, so no need to revert back to ancient times!

Stop now, go read some Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Ross Seyfried, Brian Pearce and John Linebaugh. Before you embarrass yourselves any further with your ignorance.

 

[off road]

My personal choice in shotgun slugs is the 600 gr 3" Brenneke Black Magic. The lead is HARD, and it makes a bigger hole unexpanded, than a rifle or handgun bullet makes fully expanded. My rifle choice these days is a .45-70 loaded with Buffalo Bore 8C. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=153

Given a choice, any fool (even a Tennessee hillbilly who has never seen a grizzly except on National Geographic!) will take a big bore rifle over a shotgun, and a properly loaded shotgun over even the most powerful handguns.

As for the OP's question about the .41, by today's standards, the .357, .41, and .44 are really just 'intermediate' cartridges...compared to the big boys like the .454, .460, and .500. Workable for black bear, but I wouldn't go out in griz country with anything less than a .454.

 

[Axehandle]

+1 for Mary Ann...

 

[JWhitmore44]

LOL! Does a big Bowie knife have enough SD penetration to do the job?

Only if it's a K-Bar


Reminds me of the scene in Jeremiah Johnson "can you skin a griz?"

 

[chris_]

I like these threads. Yes, there is a little heated discussion, but there is some good info in there somewhere.

As for the .41, I fully intend to shoot a Black this year with a .41 in 300gr. I'll have a rifle with me as well, but the HG will be the first choice. And I know exactly zero about shooting, chasing, hunting, or defending myself against bears. Well, maybe a little, but just enough to get into real trouble.

 

[Three44s]

If you look back to the begining of this thread, Quarterbore and Lee Martin answered the OP's question with immediate replies right after the question was asked. The rest of this thread has been one hard long slog down into the rabbit hole.

The sum total of the discussion about shotguns could have been addressed by this statement:

If you are going to protect yourself with a shotgun, chose your slugs wisely!

******************

I look at the whole shotgun question this way ....... If a shotgun was not a viable choice then there are a hell of a lot of Game and Fish folks threading on thin ice up north. But I don't think so.

Another way to look at it is this:

If you were a bear and had to pick whether to run through a 12 ga. pump shot gun loaded to the gunnels with a good bunch of slugs or a guy with a bolt action rifle of a heavy caliber ........... which would you chose?

******************

Not a bear but a good lesson anyway:

A very good friend of mine and his son were in Africa.

Late in the day they shot and wounded a grown male Lion.

As the light faded they, the guide and the backup man (with a 10 ga. shotgun, the hunters, father and son were standing on one of those mounds.

From 45 yds. in the under brush the lion charged.

The guide, the father and the son all got off two rounds apiece with their bolt guns ............ but missed.

The back up man boogered ..........

The son JUST barely got off round three grazing the lion .... his .300 win mag slug RICOCHETTED off the skull of the lion but was JUST enough to turn the charging lion so that it did not kill them ......

........ it's tail merely knocked them OFF the mound!

A follow up shot killed the now disoriented lion ........ (I suspect that there were lots of follow up shots however ....)


There are many good atributes to a good bolt action rifle ... but (firing) speed rarely tops the list.

Three 44s

 

[Desertdog]

to answer the OP....Yes.....41 Mag is one hell of a round....been shooting one for a long time.... would NOT be afraid of any bears with that round. I handload a lot of different types of .41 and yes....there is a limited amount of lead available in .41....there are a handful of great loads to be had. Enjoy and fear not!!

 

[jpickar]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

John

 

[AzRebel]

Mary Ann. Definitely Mayr Ann.

Daryl

 

[tek4260]

Simple question. Which is easier to kill, a deer or a bear?

I've shot deer with 44's to 475's, 240 JHP to 400gr Cast, and have yet to reliably DRT them. So what makes one feel safe with a handgun? I realize it is better than nothing, but I don't think I would want to argue how effective one is over the other.

And they all will kill one, in time. Just hard to figure how much time you have when it all goes to hell I suppose.

 

[Short Barrel]

tek4260,I honestly think bear are easier to kill.They do have thick hair and some fat and their anatomy sometimes ends up causing bullets to be placed incorrectly so blood trails are way less common and often,marginally hit bears are never recovered.Bears don't get shocky like deer and some game.They streak when hit unless broken down.The fastest kill I ever had on a bear was my only bow kill.Hit through heart and lungs,it ran full tilt and went down in 13 yds.Do the math on that at 35 MPH.Bears go down fast when properly hit.

 

[Short Barrel]

"Stop now, go read some Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Ross Seyfried, Brian Pearce and John Linebaugh. Before you embarrass yourselves any further with your ignorance."

Thanks Craig C for interjecting.I was just trying to figure out if there was some way to bring all those animals back to life that I took cleanly with hard cast bullets.You have to love "internet experts".

 

[chris_]

tek4260,I honestly think bear are easier to kill.They do have thick hair and some fat and their anatomy sometimes ends up causing bullets to be placed incorrectly so blood trails are way less common and often,marginally hit bears are never recovered.Bears don't get shocky like deer and some game.They streak when hit unless broken down.The fastest kill I ever had on a bear was my only bow kill.Hit through heart and lungs,it ran full tilt and went down in 13 yds.Do the math on that at 35 MPH.Bears go down fast when properly hit.

You kilt a bare with a bow? Unpossible. A 200 gr arrow moving at 300 ish FPS couldn't bring down a houseplant sez I.

Only kidding! People out here in my state think it's sporting to let dogs chase a bear up a tree and then shoot it out of the tree. Props to you, sir.

 

[off road]

"Stop now, go read some Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Ross Seyfried, Brian Pearce and John Linebaugh. Before you embarrass yourselves any further with your ignorance."

Thanks Craig C for interjecting.I was just trying to figure out if there was some way to bring all those animals back to life that I took cleanly with hard cast bullets.You have to love "internet experts".

As opposed to what, easterners and flatlanders who read obsolete books???

 

[off road]

Woops, duplicat post.