1911s the price differences
- Thread starter B.L. Hall
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gunzo said:
Not kidding in the least ... If you knew anything about 1911's (other than old wives tales) we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Excerpted from an Iowegan post .... A well respected gunsmith that used to be here prior to going to rugerforum.net.
http://rugerforum.net/ruger-pistols/80288-sr1911-shake-rattle.html
Probably the biggest gun myth in the shooting industry has to do with the "tightness" of 1911s slides (or any other semi auto with a slide). I suppose it's because a person that knows nothing about 1911s can feel the looseness or rattle and use this to judge quality ... ignorance is bliss.
Here's some facts concerning 1911s ..... the slide contains the barrel, barrel bushing, and sights. It operates as a self contained unit, using the lower frame strictly as a means to hold the slide and contain other essential parts. If the slide rails move sideways or vertically in the frame rails, the sights will track with the slide. In other words, the tightness of the slide has virtually nothing to do with accuracy. Very tight slide-to-frame fit almost always means the gun will malfunction, especially after shooting 50 or more rounds in a session. Seems powder residue will find its way to the rails and bind up the slide. When the slide has just a few thousands more play, reliability increases dramatically. Good example .... my Les Baer has a near zero slide-to-frame fit. It won't shoot more than 30~40 rounds without binding up, which requires a field strip to clean the rails.
The four most important accuracy issues with any 1911 are ... how well the barrel bushing fits the slide, how well the barrel bushing fits the barrel, how well the barrel's rear hood fits the notch in the slide, and the quality of barrel's bore and chamber. The first three attributes combine so if there is .002" bushing-to-barrel play, .002" bushing-to-slide play, and another .002" hood-to-slide play, the total play is .006", so in theory ... these specs will allow 1" groups at 25 yards. National Match grade 1911s have virtually no play between the barrel and bushing and between the bushing and slide. They also have minimal play between the barrel hood and slide plus they have very snug chambers and highly polished uniform bores with .005" headspace. These guns can easily shoot 1/2" groups @ 25 yards .... in fact Les Baer guarantees some of their models will shoot 1/2" groups @ 50 yards. GI 1911 MilSpecs were 10 MOA or 2 1/2" groups @ 25 yards when tested at the factory. With some wear or parts replacements, accuracy could diminish to 5" @ 25 yards.
Proof: I have an old Series 70 Colt 1911 that I used for NRA bullseye matches. It has well over 60,000 rounds of hardball down the pipe. At about 50,000 rounds, I had to replace the barrel because the rifling was worn out. The slide has .020" side play and .014" vertical play. The new barrel fits nice and tight but the slide rattles like a BB in a freight car on the frame yet still shoots groups well under an inch @ 25 yards.
On to Ruger SR-1911s ...... I can't say all SR-1911s will spec out the same as mine but I'm impressed with the quality of fit in my gun. The bushing-to-barrel fit measures .002", the bushing-to-slide fit measures .001", and the hood-to-slide fit is .002". Headspace is .010". There is .005" horizontal slide-to-frame play and .004" vertical play .... and yes, it will rattle if you shake it. My SR-1911 will shoot 1" groups from a bench rest using 230gr FMJ (GI equivalent) loads. I can get slightly tighter groups with lead bullets. Is it a $2000 Les Baer or a $1400 Kimber match grade? No, but it still has very respectable accuracy and functions flawless.
Any questions ?
REV
Rev ... I also value Iowegan's opinion and strongly agree that he is indeed one of the best when it comes to explaining the mechanics of firearms
. One of the primary reasons that I placed the SR1911 on my short list (and recently added one to my collection) was the excellent report and rating that Iowegan gave his SR1911 in the following thread: http://rugerforum.net/ruger-pistols/35780-sr1911-critique.html. The experience with my new SR1911 so far echos Iowegan's comments of "Ruger got it right" and "it's a great pistol" :wink:. If you haven't already done so, you really should try one if you ever get the chance
.I've shot 1 SR and handled numerous.
The things that keep me from buying one are 1 ... the rough looking 'brushed' finish ... 2 .... the 2 tone look .... and 3 ... the inconsistency. Some shoot 5 inch groups and some shoot 2 inch groups.
The one I shot was about 3 inches at 50 feet. I have numerous 1911's that will blow that accuracy away ... so I see no need for another mediocre accuracy gun.
They're nice $550-600 guns, but for the same price I can get a Springfield MilSpec in all stainless and not have the cheap looking two tone look.
If you're a total Ruger junkie ... its the gun for you. I've grown to want and need more than an entry level 1911. Actually ... at my age I'm pretty much done buying guns. I'll just keep the ones I have.
REV
The things that keep me from buying one are 1 ... the rough looking 'brushed' finish ... 2 .... the 2 tone look .... and 3 ... the inconsistency. Some shoot 5 inch groups and some shoot 2 inch groups.
The one I shot was about 3 inches at 50 feet. I have numerous 1911's that will blow that accuracy away ... so I see no need for another mediocre accuracy gun.
They're nice $550-600 guns, but for the same price I can get a Springfield MilSpec in all stainless and not have the cheap looking two tone look.
If you're a total Ruger junkie ... its the gun for you. I've grown to want and need more than an entry level 1911. Actually ... at my age I'm pretty much done buying guns. I'll just keep the ones I have.
REV
revhigh said:
REV,
I'd like to first say that I've read several of Iowegans post & feel that he is knowledgeable & talented gunsmith. I wouldn't try to dispute with most he said.
That aside, I asked you a question & got an answer, several actually.
But.. before I asked I tried to refresh my knowledge or lack thereof on the subject. I reread a few chapters about 1911 accuracy in 3 books I have on the subject...hardly old wives tales.
1) The Combat .45 Auto by Bill Wilson & Mike Bane
2) Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook by Ken Hallock
3) The U.S. M1911/M1911a1 Pistols by Jerry Kuhnhausen
Now... you answer with "Something you read on the Internet" as the basis of your knowledge on 1911 accuracy !
To that, I say ...BRAVO !!
It was just one example ...
If you choose to believe otherwise ... thats up to you and is perfectly fine with me
Both my Gold Cups rattle ... as do most Colts unless worked on ... and both shoot into 1.5 inches or better at 50 feet offhand. Thats about the best accuracy I can appreciate and therefore I dont buy beyond that in price .... which is what I was trying to portray in my previous posts, but went over several poster's heads.
Ive been shooting 1911's for 35 years and have never been able to correlate accuracy and rattle ... unless youre talking about an old WW2 relic that's just plain shot out.
Either way ... a good discussion.
REV
If you choose to believe otherwise ... thats up to you and is perfectly fine with me
Both my Gold Cups rattle ... as do most Colts unless worked on ... and both shoot into 1.5 inches or better at 50 feet offhand. Thats about the best accuracy I can appreciate and therefore I dont buy beyond that in price .... which is what I was trying to portray in my previous posts, but went over several poster's heads.
Ive been shooting 1911's for 35 years and have never been able to correlate accuracy and rattle ... unless youre talking about an old WW2 relic that's just plain shot out.
Either way ... a good discussion.
REV
revhigh said:
REV ... I guess that I was lucky and got one of the few good ones (met my accuracy and consistency expectation with a very good barrel to bushing, bushing to slide & lug to slide fit) :lol:.
Not being a "total Ruger junkie", as the majority of my pistol collection is comprised of other manufacturers (CZ, Springfield, S & W, Browning and others), beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally like the look of the finish (mine is an all stainless commander ... don't personally care for the two tone look of the LW Commander either).
All that said, while it clearly will never be on par with the Nighthawks, Les Baers and other match grade customs that I've had the privilege of shooting over the years (haven't decided to own one yet but there is still time
), the SR1911 IMHO is capable of giving those mid range (read $1,000) 1911s a pretty good run for the money as its on par with my Springfields and I like it a great deal better than either of the Kimbers I've bought and sold along the way. YMMVHey Buck ... the main thing I don't like about the finish is its roughness ... if it had a finish like all my GP100's or SRH's id like it, but the ones that ive seen have looked like they're almost a different kind of stainless ... more gold in color like my one Python or Series 70 1911 ...which is Coltguard ... a nickel type finish. The brushing was also very coarse IMO, much coarser than my GP's and SRH's or even my MK's.
REV
REV
revhigh said:
REV ... Maybe there has been a modification in the finish since the early models (don't know). Mine is as smooth as a baby's butt and has no gold cast to it that I can see. Ruger calls it "low glare" stainless and to my eye it's quite nice
Revolver-Time
Single-Sixer
I believe I said that a few pages ago before everyone here got their panties all wadded up. Hey Rev, I can still put a 230 gr hardball any place I want to with my entry level PT 1911. That includes a 4" circle at 100, yes 100 yards. I have a Sig, and several Colts and they just don't shoot any better than the PT 1911. Why would I spend more money on a pistol? Just to say I have one? It is my opinion that high dollar 1911's are just marketing fluff and people have to defend that they fell prey to the dollars spent. Kinda like the Lexus and the Camrey, both Toyotas and run down the same line with the same operating components.revhigh said:
Price isn't everything. My 29 sits at home while my Super Blackhawk goes deer hunting with me. The Smith has a better trigger but the Ruger brings home the meat.
squawberryman
Single-Sixer
I took a Kobra Karry into a 1,000 round self defense class one day years ago. New gun to me. It's an Ed Brown, what could go wrong? One thing, over and over. It wouldn't go into battery after ten magazines. I got a hell of a deal and paid 1,500.00 for it. I sent it back to Ed Brown with a letter stating I didn't have confidence in this firearm. My ignorance and arrogance were amazing. Now I own three EB's and called and spoke with Mr. Brown one day. He certainly remembered that letter. I couldn't apologize and thank him enough. Accurate as anything out there in MY hands I'm sure, needed a lot of attention. One EB I've got I bought used from an IPSC shooter out of NY. He said he put 5K rounds through it. Lets say it was really 20K for reality sake. The smoothness and accuracy of that gun is amazing. I'd rather shoot it than the Kobra. Buy what makes you happy, but some guns ARE better than others.
DA_TriggR4Ruger
Hunter
cas said:I have a $600 1911 that I've swapped in almost $350 worth of parts to make it "just right".
I recently bought a $1200 1911 that's I've put close to $450 worth of parts in to make it "just right". :roll: In theory the one is better than the other. In reality, not so much. Not "double" much.
I get to play with a lot of high end 1911's and I think they're all over priced. I say that comparing what they're doing and what you're getting, compared to paying the same amount of money to a big name custom revolver builder, what they're doing and what you're getting for the same money.
Agreed, I would rather have the same money into a comparably priced high end revolver.
Rabon
Single-Sixer
Strange, after a lot of 1911s I have two left, both plain Jane Colts.s4s4u said:
dakota1911
Buckeye
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2009
- Messages
- 1,021
I am going to go back to the first post. I have thought about this and the simple answer is the bell shaped curve of what is made. Crappy on the left and amazing on the right. With a more expensive gun you are more likely to get one that is O.K. to amazing.
I stick by my statement of a first time 1911 buyer picking one that has a rep for good customer service. Right now that would be SA and Ruger plus Colt seems to have come up lately to be pretty good. I am sure there are others. Search the forums and filter BS from fact. I have never sent one back but I am able to do a lot of work on 1911s including replacing the front sight on my SR1911 if it breaks. I ordered a couple and they are a $6 part from Ruger. But I have been playing with 1911s for over 50 years (I am not THAT old as I started when I was 9) and have a gunsmithing certificate mixed in with a couple college degrees plus lots of tools and I know a lot of people can not do this.
Time for pictures. So my Ruger SR1911CMD-LW which is on the bottom below under a couple other Ruger Commanders.
Now mine was a little over $700 but is it the same in LW Commander land as Wiley Clapp Commander from Colt/Talo or a S&W 1911PC from the S&W Performance Center? Either of those guys cost almost twice as much.
I will get around to shooting all of them on the same day with the same ammo, but that is only one example of each so what does it really prove?
Part of this is belonging to shooting clubs, talking with real people, not just the intergoogle. Shooting their guns and having them shoot yours. I belong to a few. One example is I had a SA RO (5inch 45 as the only one made then) that was not doing it for me past 25 yards. I sold it to a friend because I wanted the $ to fund a Colt GCNM in 2012 as I thought Colt might flash the pan on these, but they didn't. Still I shot other guys ROs and they were good; nicer than mine so I bought another one in .45 last fall and one in 9mm this Jan. Nice pistols.
Time for a Taurus story. I bought about the first one in my area back when they showed up for $499. I was curious about them.
Mine was pretty good. I let friends and shooty buddies shoot it and they went out and bought them. Almost all of them had pretty bad problems with theirs and Taurus they found was not a good vendor to deal with. So I still have mine and still no problems but am careful who I go out an shoot it with. A lot of my friends still growl when they hear the name.
I stick by my statement of a first time 1911 buyer picking one that has a rep for good customer service. Right now that would be SA and Ruger plus Colt seems to have come up lately to be pretty good. I am sure there are others. Search the forums and filter BS from fact. I have never sent one back but I am able to do a lot of work on 1911s including replacing the front sight on my SR1911 if it breaks. I ordered a couple and they are a $6 part from Ruger. But I have been playing with 1911s for over 50 years (I am not THAT old as I started when I was 9) and have a gunsmithing certificate mixed in with a couple college degrees plus lots of tools and I know a lot of people can not do this.
Time for pictures. So my Ruger SR1911CMD-LW which is on the bottom below under a couple other Ruger Commanders.
Now mine was a little over $700 but is it the same in LW Commander land as Wiley Clapp Commander from Colt/Talo or a S&W 1911PC from the S&W Performance Center? Either of those guys cost almost twice as much.
I will get around to shooting all of them on the same day with the same ammo, but that is only one example of each so what does it really prove?
Part of this is belonging to shooting clubs, talking with real people, not just the intergoogle. Shooting their guns and having them shoot yours. I belong to a few. One example is I had a SA RO (5inch 45 as the only one made then) that was not doing it for me past 25 yards. I sold it to a friend because I wanted the $ to fund a Colt GCNM in 2012 as I thought Colt might flash the pan on these, but they didn't. Still I shot other guys ROs and they were good; nicer than mine so I bought another one in .45 last fall and one in 9mm this Jan. Nice pistols.
Time for a Taurus story. I bought about the first one in my area back when they showed up for $499. I was curious about them.
Mine was pretty good. I let friends and shooty buddies shoot it and they went out and bought them. Almost all of them had pretty bad problems with theirs and Taurus they found was not a good vendor to deal with. So I still have mine and still no problems but am careful who I go out an shoot it with. A lot of my friends still growl when they hear the name.
SAJohn
Hunter
I inherited a 1943 GI .45. After tightening up the slide and fitting a barrel bushing, it shoots tighter groups than my Colt MK IV. However, both of them throw the first round well outside the rest of the group.
My point is that you can do just a little bit of trigger parts polishing and fitting of an inexpensive oversized barrel bushing to a $400 1911 and turn it into a near tack driver.
My point is that you can do just a little bit of trigger parts polishing and fitting of an inexpensive oversized barrel bushing to a $400 1911 and turn it into a near tack driver.
Biggfoot44
Blackhawk
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2009
- Messages
- 829
More back on the theme at the start of this thread.
A decade or two ago the really inexpensive Phillipene guns had inconsistant dimentions and inconsistant steel. Today that's been handled .
People have different preferences / needs on how a 1911 is configured ( *for me* , I need a beavertail of some sort to not get bitten every shot , and flat msh and long trigger to fit my hand. YMMV . Stock slide release and small-ish one side thumb safety are fine, YMMV. Sights slightly larger than GI , but no particular preference beyond thaat, YMMV .) It is most $ effecent to purchaase a gun that already has trigger/ msh/ grip safety acceptable to YOU from the factory.
Handle a specific gun , look for a trigger that is reasonably acceptable.
Apearence is subjective. If you find the looks of somthing offensive , and you haappen to care , don't buy it.
I have my expectations of out of box accuraccy , and ussually they are met. Your expectations and milage will vary.
Accuracy with iron sighted 1911 ( and bottomfeeders generally ) has much more to do with bbl fitting than slide tightness.
So -IF- the bare bones 1911 is not configured to your need/ preference , buy aa medium priced one that is , rather than spend several hundred $ reconfiguring.
A decade or two ago the really inexpensive Phillipene guns had inconsistant dimentions and inconsistant steel. Today that's been handled .
People have different preferences / needs on how a 1911 is configured ( *for me* , I need a beavertail of some sort to not get bitten every shot , and flat msh and long trigger to fit my hand. YMMV . Stock slide release and small-ish one side thumb safety are fine, YMMV. Sights slightly larger than GI , but no particular preference beyond thaat, YMMV .) It is most $ effecent to purchaase a gun that already has trigger/ msh/ grip safety acceptable to YOU from the factory.
Handle a specific gun , look for a trigger that is reasonably acceptable.
Apearence is subjective. If you find the looks of somthing offensive , and you haappen to care , don't buy it.
I have my expectations of out of box accuraccy , and ussually they are met. Your expectations and milage will vary.
Accuracy with iron sighted 1911 ( and bottomfeeders generally ) has much more to do with bbl fitting than slide tightness.
So -IF- the bare bones 1911 is not configured to your need/ preference , buy aa medium priced one that is , rather than spend several hundred $ reconfiguring.
