45Colt vs 44 Spl

[CraigC]

That's the big difference. In a strong, large frame sixgun, you fill that big case with slow burning powder and the .45 becomes a whole nuther critter.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a mid-frame .45 either, I have two of them and would love to have one of the new flat-top convertibles.

 

[Bucks Owin]

That's the big difference. In a strong, large frame sixgun, you fill that big case with slow burning powder and the .45 becomes a whole nuther critter.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a mid-frame .45 either, I have two of them and would love to have one of the new flat-top convertibles.

Wonder if the .45 FT has proper "snug" dimensions, or 1870's BP charge holes and DIY throats? :?

 

[CraigC]

Those guns should be as well made as the other flat-tops, produced on the new CNC machinery. Chambers cut one at a time. Probably a coin toss.

 

[wildcatter]

...objectively speaking, the .44 is really the better choice.

I am more than curious as to the perceived logic of this claim.

Perhaps the proper term is "subjectively"?

No, I said what I meant and meant what I said.

Objectively speaking, the .44Spl is the better cartridge for the platform. It has a broader range of suitable loads, is much more efficient, can utilize longer bullets, is easier to handload for and has better bullet selection than the .38-40 or .44-40 and typically has more consistent dimensions than the .45Colt. There is a very good reason why folks have been converting Old Model Rugers to .44Spl, rather than .45Colt for all the decades since Skeeter first had his built. It strikes a perfect balance between cartridge and sixgun.

Subjectively speaking, lots of folks have an unreasonable fondness for the .45Colt.

Wow, I think very subjective. --definition -- "relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience"

Lets be reasonable here Craig, if you are are saying the 44 special can be more powerful on a smaller frame and cylinder gun than the New Model Blackhawk, I think you made your point. More versatile? more efficient? more customized, and definitely not wider loved! Think again!

It does not, and never will, have the long lived love affair, or popularity with shooters, as the 45 Colt! there never has been, or probably, will never be as many strictly (meaning non magnum compatible) 44 special owners as 45 Colt owners, PERIOD! In my more than 40 years of handgunning, have known far more shooters "personally" looking for one of the many 357 magnum built NM or OM Blachawks, to build a 45 custom revolver on than any other caliber to customize!

#1 (more customized) I would, and have, researched custom guns built on Blackhawks, new and old, and according to three very popular custom gunsmiths, Clements, Linebaugh, Reeder, 45 caliber Blackhawks are there most in demand, and most all for the 45 Colt cylinder. Even the guns built for 454 are said to be used primarily for 45 Colt. This is not a three month or 2 year fad, but over all top calibers ask for. They all will tell you, from time to time, the have a run on a certain caliber or conversion, but year after year, the 45 Colt keeps it's popularity. And undesputably no other cartridge has had the success or popularity for as many years as the 45 Colt has! FACT! over a century!

#2 (more efficient) Probably because of the fact that for the most part, they are made for SHOOTERS who RELOAD there own ammo, even the factory made 45 Colts, are probably owned by people who roll there own. I believe the last I checked you can load the 45 Colt with Loads from 185 grains to over 400 grains, pretty versatile, by most non bias, shooters standards. You can't get get much better than that for flexibility, even grouse can, and have, be taken with this Old favorite, with the little 200 grain swc, or rnd nose, cast slug, with a light charge of ww-231, or red dot, without destroying it. While at the same time, this cartridge, in the appropriate firearm, can take any animal on this planet, and has! Most likely the only caliber that out numbers it in revolvers built, is the 38 spcl., or 357 magnum, neither of which I would consider as being near as flexible, ("broader range of suggestible loads") Unless you consider published as suitable! Or being able to do a single thing better, such as use less powder with a particular load?

#3 (unreasonable fondness) I think the main reason it has kept it's popularity, and never fell off the manufacturing line, is the fact that no other handgun cartridge has been around as many years as the 45 Colt and been this successful in it's versatility, for so many decades, (small game, big game, self defense, target). There have been those that come and go big and small, everyone has to run out and buy one, then all the sudden they have fulfilled the FAD, but the fabulous 45 just keeps selling, day after day, year after year, decade after decade, and now century after century, thats not an unreasonable fondness. Is it?

Now for me even in a SAA platform, it would be the 45 Colt, I am bias, I have a fondness of the 45 caliber, I love it's ability, and am intrigued by it's history, and the men that made it famous!!! Elmer didn't give up on the caliber, he simply had to settle for less, since there was no frame capable at the time to harness it's power! So he setteled for second best!! Aren't we fortunate that we have the many platforms we do today, to take advantage of such a fine, and powerful historic achievement as the mighty 45 Colt cartridge. No other pistol cartridge, has held the length of time, with the following of this time tested, power house, that finally grew into its own.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Anybody'll tell you I'm a diehard .45LC fan but I can see the .44 Spl as a good "little frame" big bore. Above all, I'm with (I think it was) Col Townsend Whelen who said "only accurate guns are interesting" and I'll take any sixgun that fits that criterion, regardless of the size of hole at the muzzle! The .45 LC can fill that bill, witness Seyfried's MOA custom, but it'll take more "messin' with" when we're talking .45 Ruger...(At least mine) But if I had to own one caliber, well, I have no doubts what it'd be.... :wink:

Two likely unnecessary centavos...

 

[CraigC]

Sorry wildcatter but you cannot have a comparison between the two cartridges with zero regard for platforms. You completely disregard platform in your very compelling, but somewhat over simplified post.

We're not talking about large frame guns. As such, the following is completely irrelevant:

#1 (more customized) I would, and have, researched custom guns built on Blackhawks, new and old, and according to three very popular custom gunsmiths, Clements, Linebaugh, Reeder, 45 caliber Blackhawks are there most in demand, and most all for the 45 Colt cylinder. Even the guns built for 454 are said to be used primarily for 45 Colt. This is not a three month or 2 year fad, but over all top calibers ask for. They all will tell you, from time to time, the have a run on a certain caliber or conversion, but year after year, the 45 Colt keeps it's popularity. And undesputably no other cartridge has had the success or popularity for as many years as the 45 Colt has! FACT! over a century!

...to over 400 grains, pretty versatile, by most non bias, shooters standards.

#3 (unreasonable fondness) I think the main reason it has kept it's popularity, and never fell off the manufacturing line, is the fact that no other handgun cartridge has been around as many years as the 45 Colt and been this successful in it's versatility, for so many decades, (small game, big game, self defense, target). There have been those that come and go big and small, everyone has to run out and buy one, then all the sudden they have fulfilled the FAD, but the fabulous 45 just keeps selling, day after day, year after year, decade after decade, and now century after century, thats not an unreasonable fondness.

All the rest of it is purely subjective romance, bordering on Kool Aid consumption.

In the guns in question, it is the .44Spl that has greater versatility. It pushes bullets of the same weight 100-150fps faster and does so with a greater safety margin. It is less often affected by ambiguous blackpowder era dimensions.

Elmer didn't give up on the caliber, he simply had to settle for less, since there was no frame capable at the time to harness it's power! So he setteled for second best!!

I find it very interesting that so many .45Colt shooters are so willing to poop on the .44's. Without the .44Spl, there would be no .44Mag. Without the .44Mag, there would be no large frame .45Colt for you to play with.

Settle for less? Second best??? Not even close!!!

I have gone out of my way not to poop on the .45Colt. I only ask that others do the same. :roll:

 

[WESHOOT2]

All good points.

It's true there are many suspect 45s I'd not presume to push, unlike the more modern 44 Special.

The 45 Colt remains the more effective cartridge. Effective terminally.

 

[AzRebel]

I love the .45 Colt, and shoot it quite a bit...but I do so in a full sized revolver.

In the mid-framed guns, I'd go with the .44 special. Not that I'd push it all that hard; if that's my goal (which it is at times), I go for a full sized .45 Colt. The .44 special offers quite a bit though, in a packable and easy to shoot package.

All depends on what you want, and what you want to do with it. For most uses, the .44 special is plenty. I just prefer the .45 Colt for those few times when it isn't.

Daryl

 

[wildcatter]

Sorry wildcatter but you cannot have a comparison between the two cartridges with zero regard for platforms. You completely disregard platform in your very compelling, but somewhat over simplified post.

We're not talking about large frame guns. As such, the following is completely irrelevant:

#1 (more customized) I would, and have, researched custom guns built on Blackhawks, new and old, and according to three very popular custom gunsmiths, Clements, Linebaugh, Reeder, 45 caliber Blackhawks are there most in demand, and most all for the 45 Colt cylinder. Even the guns built for 454 are said to be used primarily for 45 Colt. This is not a three month or 2 year fad, but over all top calibers ask for. They all will tell you, from time to time, the have a run on a certain caliber or conversion, but year after year, the 45 Colt keeps it's popularity. And undesputably no other cartridge has had the success or popularity for as many years as the 45 Colt has! FACT! over a century!

...to over 400 grains, pretty versatile, by most non bias, shooters standards.

#3 (unreasonable fondness) I think the main reason it has kept it's popularity, and never fell off the manufacturing line, is the fact that no other handgun cartridge has been around as many years as the 45 Colt and been this successful in it's versatility, for so many decades, (small game, big game, self defense, target). There have been those that come and go big and small, everyone has to run out and buy one, then all the sudden they have fulfilled the FAD, but the fabulous 45 just keeps selling, day after day, year after year, decade after decade, and now century after century, thats not an unreasonable fondness.

All the rest of it is purely subjective romance, bordering on Kool Aid consumption.

In the guns in question, it is the .44Spl that has greater versatility. It pushes bullets of the same weight 100-150fps faster and does so with a greater safety margin. It is less often affected by ambiguous blackpowder era dimensions.

Elmer didn't give up on the caliber, he simply had to settle for less, since there was no frame capable at the time to harness it's power! So he setteled for second best!!

I find it very interesting that so many .45Colt shooters are so willing to poop on the .44's. Without the .44Spl, there would be no .44Mag. Without the .44Mag, there would be no large frame .45Colt for you to play with.

Settle for less? Second best??? Not even close!!!

I have gone out of my way not to poop on the .45Colt. I only ask that others do the same. :roll:

I did say you were right about the smaller frame guns, but then I have been reminded, that even though you can load a given weight to a higher velocity, you are doing it with higher pressure. But you seem to leave out the FACT -- "you can not load the same weight bullet, in the 44 special, regardless of frame size, without increasing pressure substantially"!! so to keep weight and speed in order here, don't confuse lighter weigh with more speed, as more power. I don't deny the fact that the 44 special is an excellent round, just don't try to say it is a superior, or advantageous over a 45 Colt. If you put the same amount of powder in the 45 Colt as the 44 special with the same weight bullet, the 45 Colt will be slower but the pressure will also be much lower!

Physics 101: The 357 mag is a much higher velocity load, with a lot more reassure than a 45ACP. But I will still take the 45 ACP any day, for protection from 2 legged to 4 legged critters, if I want real stopping power. That is exactly what would happen if the GP-100 could be had in 45 caliber, ACP or Colt, Mine would be traded in a hartbeat, and if it was only offered in 44 special, that is what I would have!! But one could still fantasize about ba Five shot 45 Colt in my 4" GP. and I will.

I was not the one that brought the Blackhawk frame up, you mentioned how demanding the custom 44 special was with regaurds to Skeeter starting a "FAD", and how so many had to have it, certainly short lived if it ever did rate as greater interest and more requested than 45 Colt, because that aint happening today. Altho it may for a short while, as the introduction of the latest single action are creating a surge of interest again. But remember this, the 45 Colt has been tested thru time, and seems to continue to be a top consideration from, cowboy shooters to big and dangerous game hunters. It has been over powered, time and time again, but for over a century it has stood strong, will continue to stay well rooted as a top big bore favorite for many, if not most.

I really doubt anyone needed a 44 mag to generate a frame that would handle a full power 45 Colt??? That is almost as ridiculous as saying, we needed John Linebaugh to make a 500 Linebagh, for Smit & wishon to develop a frame that is as cumbersome as a 50 caliber rifle, so we could shoot a 460?? :roll:

 

[mike454]

The 45 colt is always better......Unless you want something smaller.

 

[CraigC]

You're again muddying the waters with regards to platform. This also ain't a simple .44Spl vs. .45Colt debate but you have obviously taken it personally as if I spit on your dog.

I did say you were right about the smaller frame guns...

Then why the argument??? We're talking about Colt SAA's, replicas and mid-frame Rugers.

I did say you were right about the smaller frame guns, but then I have been reminded, that even though you can load a given weight to a higher velocity, you are doing it with higher pressure. But you seem to leave out the FACT -- "you can not load the same weight bullet, in the 44 special, regardless of frame size, without increasing pressure substantially"!!

Umm, no, I did not. This is a non issue, again with the platforms in question. Because the .44Spl can be loaded to higher pressures in these guns. The .45 can be loaded over SAAMI standard pressures but this ain't a .44Mag vs. .45Colt debate. Loaded to maximum acceptable pressure, the .44Spl still beats it by 100fps with EQUAL bullet weights.

I don't deny the fact that the 44 special is an excellent round, just don't try to say it is a superior, or advantageous over a 45 Colt.

In the platforms in question, it IS superior. :roll:

I was not the one that brought the Blackhawk frame up, you mentioned how demanding the custom 44 special was with regaurds to Skeeter starting a "FAD", and how so many had to have it, certainly short lived if it ever did rate as greater interest and more requested than 45 Colt, because that aint happening today.

Have you been living under a rock??? It is the custom .44Spl "fad", as you say, that is responsible for Ruger finally introducing mid-frame .44Spl's.

But remember this, the 45 Colt has been tested thru time, and seems to continue to be a top consideration from, cowboy shooters to big and dangerous game hunters. It has been over powered, time and time again, but for over a century it has stood strong, will continue to stay well rooted as a top big bore favorite for many, if not most.

All true and all irrelevant.

I really doubt anyone needed a 44 mag to generate a frame that would handle a full power 45 Colt???

We sure as hell did! Where do you think the large frame .45Colt Blackhawk and all of Linebaugh's subsequent work came from???

 

[Hombre]

Got em both,like em both

 

[MMichaelAK]

writwing, you've opened the same can of worms the .30-06 vs. .270 Winchester hissy fits come out of I think.

You already have both calibers, why not get one of each? It may take some time but it's the best answer Ive got.

 

[wildcatter]

Craig C you seem to have a problem understanding, It takes more pressure for the 44 special to push the same weight boolit to the same velocity as a 45 Colt does! and it does in this FRAME!! I will leave this for someone else to explain!

Simply put, "a 44 special requires MORE PRESSURE to move the same weight slug, than 45 Colt does, "at LOWER pressure", in any frame you want to put it in, as long as you DON'T PLUG THE BARREL!!!!

I am not arguing with you, just trying to get you to understand!! These are not Ruger only loads, standard 45 Colt loads safe for the SAA and clones!

try this, hogdon manual ==200 GR. CAST LRNFP 44 special, IMR SR 4756 8.2 grains 1002 fps 12,600 CUP

same online manual ==200 GR. CAST LRNFP 45 Colt IMR SR 4756 10.0 grains 986 12,100 PSI

Try this in 44 special with a 240 grain slug== 240 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Universal .430" 5.6 grains 873 13,300 CUP

compaered to a 250 grain (10 grain heavier) 45 Colt - 250 GR. CAST LRNFP Hodgdon Universal .452" 7.8 grains @941 FPS 13,000 CUP

As one can clearly see!! You see the same weight boolit in both!! The 44 special generates 500 more psi for another 16fps!! over the 45 Colt! Then with the same powder and liighter boolit by 10 grains, the 44 special registers 300 more PSI with nearly 70 LESS feet per second!! Laboritory facts! l You can take any weight boolit, and any powder you want, the Colt will push the same weight slug to the same speed with less pressure! check it out!

About the only thing you can say to defend your theory is you can over load the smaller gun to more than safe industry standards to out do the 45 Colt performance!! PERIOD!! The 44 special simply requires less powder to create more pressure than the 45 colt does with the same powder, for the 44 special to achieve less velocity!!

 

[Rclark]

Wildcatter... most of us know it takes less pressure in .45 Colt to do the same job as in the .44Spec/.44Mag. That's a given. No one I think is arguing that.

The thing is the smaller frame will handle mild to wild (Keith near magnum loads) with the .44 Spec. There is no need for a bigger cylinder for the caliber.... Basically, the mid frame is perfect for the .44Spec (USFA, Colt, Ruger Flattop, New Vaquero). You can't do that with the .45 Colt in the smaller frame due to cylinder size. It requires the large frame to reach it's full potential. However the mid frame will handle .45 Colt Tier 2 loads (20,000psi) as defined my Brian Pearce with ease.

Conclusion is the .44Spec has the edge in the mid frame. However for most of us, the mid frame works quite well for both calibers. Almost 100% of my shooting needs can be handled by the .45 Colt in the midframe as I have no plans of hunting Water Buffalo in Africa. Tier 2 loads are quite sufficient. Need more than that I move up to the large frame BH. With the .44Spec, I don't need to move to another gun. The mid frame will do it all (in the capability range of .44Spec that is). Need more than .44Spec, the .44 fans can move up to the .44Mag revolvers. Need more than that you go to .45 Colt Ruger Only revolvers. Need more than that you have the .454 and so on....

As to .44Spec vs .45 Colt .... that argument is ageless .

 

[CraigC]

Craig C you seem to have a problem understanding...

No, the lack of understanding is yours. The problem is that you're applying large frame, .44Mag vs. .45Colt logic where it does not apply. Which seems to happen every time this subject comes up. You guys also always parrot the "more performance, less pressure" (at least "less pressure" is still true) but never quantify what the advantage to less pressure might be.

Yes, the .44Spl requires more pressure but it also produces more velocity. Within mid-frame parameters, the .44Spl can achieve more velocity at safe maximums than the .45Colt and does so with less powder and less wasted space.

Simply put, safe maximum loads for each:
.44Spl - 250@1200fps for 25,000psi
.45Colt - 250@1100fps for 21,000psi

Moreover, you can achieve 1050fps with 300's in the .44Spl. You simply cannot match the .44Spl's maximum safe velocities in the .45Colt. Period. End of discussion. Put down the Kool Aid.

 

[wildcatter]

I think Craig and some others here are missing MY POINT!!

I am not disputing you can load the 44 special to higher psi, without blowing this gun up, you can definitely load the 44 special to higher pressure than a 45 Colt on this frame as the frame is the weak link.

My point is the blind fact that the only way can make the 44 special as "powerful" as the 45 Colt is "overload it past sammi specs". When both are loaded to the same pressure the 45 Colt is king over the 44 Special.

My point is, if you do load the 44 special to those higher pressures, all you have done is now you can say your overpressure load has caught up to the POWER LEVEL of the 45 Colt with its heavier 100 fps slower load, that used less pressure!! :roll:

In reality, you have to push a 44 special harder, to get it to do the same job the 45 Colt does, and did for -- days, and weeks, and months, and years, and centuries, :wink:

One more time, if I were allowed to have my choice, Please make mine in 45 Colt! :wink:

 

[Tommy Kelly]

Seems like the only answer to this is to get both then shoot them and decide for yourself. I personally never was drawn to the 44 special only gun. I have shot a few in my 44 mag's. I currently own 6 44 mag revolvers and 5 45 colt revolvers. My preference is for the 45 colt's mostly but the 44's are more plentiful and easier to find at least around here. I reload all my ammo and the 45 will do anything I need done and with factory loads you can go from mild to wild in the 45's where the 44's are not offered in such a wide variety of loads by commercial manufacturers. I like the bigger pistols but have most every caliber from 17hmr to 45-70 in revolvers. I like them all.

 

[DGW1949]

Thinking of getting a US Firearms Double Eagle 3" Birds Head and am trying to decide between 45C and 44 Spl. I own firearms in both so just curious if either caliber would be advantageous over the other.

I've read you question four times and still aint sure just what it is that you're asking. What I am sure of is that the debates it seems to have sparked probably aint got a thing to do with your intended uses for a SAA-sized 3" birdshead-gripped revolver.

My thoughts on that aside though, I'll offer this up, just in case it matters to you;

What we are comparing when we compare the commonly-available factory (SAMMI-spec) cartridges that you mention is a 246 Grn bullet that reaches about 750 FPS out of a test barrel VS a fatter 250/255 bullet that reaches about 850 FPS.

One is obviously more powerfull than the other, but neither will reach it's advertized velocity out of a 3" gun.

Both will display decent accuracy when lauched from a proper platform.

I can say from experience that when used in short/light guns, the .44 will exhibit less recoil, but that neither is going to pound ya very much, and certainly not nearly as much as would say, a .357.

It's been my experience that .45LC ammo is easier to find out in the world than is .44Spl ammo.

Hope this helped.

DGW

 

[CraigC]

Wildcatter, I have not missed your point. Your point is incorrect. You obviously either don't get it or are so head-over-heels in love with the .45Colt that you are completely unable to look at this stuff objectively. Your romantic nonsense about the .45 is strong proof of this.

So what are we talking about here? Factory loads?? Standard pressure handloads??? You cannot fully accept "Ruger only" .45Colt loads for the large frame guns on one hand and completely disregard loading either cartridge to the gun's potential in mid-frame sixguns. If we're talking about maximum potential for the Colt-sized platform, I stand by what I've already repeated about 17 times.

At standard pressures, which is 14,000psi for the .45Colt and 15,500psi for the .44Spl, the two cartridges are for all intents and purposes, identical. The fact that the .44Spl eats up an additional 1500psi is irrelevant and if that is the basis for your argument, well that speaks for itself.

You can easily say all the same romantic crap about the .44Spl, starting with folks like John Lachuk, Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith, ending with folks like John Taffin and Brian Pearce. But I'm trying to leave all the emotional stuff out of the equation. Apparently, you are unable to.

The cylinder is the weakest link, not the frame. :roll:

PS, I'll also challenge you to explain to us all what exactly you're gaining with this less pressure nonsense.